Seems most favor independence for Taiwan

Just wondering what are you opinions then on Hawaii? There's a pretty strong independence movement there, and if you know anything about Hawaii then you understand we (USA) don't really have a moral leg to stand on.

I have a friend from Hawaii. And I heard all about how horrible the colonization of those islands were.

Imperialism always sucks

This will be an interesting topic for sure but to say "most" favor independence? Are you suggesting most Taiwanese people or people in general?

I think this needs context.

1. The republic of china is not a break away province or the people's republic of china. Its the previous state of china before the communist revolution. they lost a civil war and continued to exist in Taiwan where the people liberation army could not reach them.

Both the republic of china and the people's republic of china claim the entire continental territory of china (plus taiwan, hainan, Tibet, Xinjiang and a lot more on the south china sea ). (Basically they claim the territory conquered by the Manchurians (Qing) plus the south china sea)

The people's republic of china has never governed Taiwan as it did not exist as a state before the civil war.

I am not sure what you mean when you say that most support the independence of Taiwan. By most you mean who ? And what kind of poll have you used as base to see what they support? Also the current status quo of taiwan is not of independence. On the contrary, it's a government that claim all the territory currently controlled by the people's republic of china.

2. I have searched about the independence movement of Hawaii and it appears to be very unpopular. I have not seen any parties that explicitly endorse it get any relevant support. So I don't think Hawaii independence is a realistic prospect.

This contrasts with the ROC that has been defacto self governing in Taiwan since before the people's republic of china existed.

Here on GS.

At least if I read the old Political Forum right.

@br0kenrabbit: it could be just the way you interpreted it. I, for instance, don't support an official declaration of independence by Taiwan as it would lead to war.

Most independence movements in the modern era, in first-world countries, tend to be more emotionally-driven than anything.

Every so often you hear about California seceded from the Union, and it's funny to talk about and you can make some fake-good (as in, a jest) arguments as to why it should happen, but at the end of the day you sort of have to go "OK now, time to come back to reality".

Unfortunately with Hawaii it's a pretty grim history so we might not be able to look at it in a humorous light. As someone said earlier, "Imperialism sucks" and this is true even when (especially when) my own country does it. With that said, it has the same emotional plea but when it comes to reality, secession/independence is just a bad move overall.

Can't comment on Taiwan, that's a very long and confusing history. Chinese memory stretches very far back, and their view of the future is generational. They're playing the long game for sure.

In my case, it was especially bad when my country did it.

Swedish war crimes against Poland, were completely unforgivable. Good riddance to the Swedish empire. My own country was far better off, after we stopped bullying other countries and started investing in ourselves. Both financially (the Swedish empire was poor, as we invested everything into bullying other nations), and for the spirit of our country. I can be proud of modern Sweden, but there is nothing to be proud of of the Sweden of the 17th and 18th centuries.

I don't know enough on this topic to have a strong opinion tbh. For example do the people of Hawaii want independence?

I can just give som general thoughts.

Taiwan is a democracy. If it was swallowed by China it would no longer be. I am a big fan of democracy.

I guess people of Hawaii already can self-govern on many issues (as all states can). And Hawaii is part of a democracy with many individual rights, such as freedom of speech and so on.

So I think the upside for the people of Hawaii if they became independent would be tiny compared to the downsides of the people of Taiwan if incorporated into China.

I know questioning everything western is modern. But I for one still think democracy in combination with strong protection for individual rights is a fantastic system.

If there is political and popular will to be independent, it definitely deserves to be discussed. Is there? From the natives at the very least?

The thing is, tho, it's the native peoples who want independence. This isn't about all Hawaiian citizens, just the native tribes.

Many of them still view Americans as invaders and occupiers.

@br0kenrabbit: how would that work? People are already racially mixed.

Are they going to take dna samples from everyone and set an arbitrary threshold for being a native or will being a native become a matter of self identification?

About what fraction of the population are they? Do you know approx?

It's tricky though because at this point their success is more or less tied to the US.

There are a few examples of tourism-heavy places gaining their independence and it just ruined them. I believe Haiti is one such example, though you could make the argument the French royally fucked them. IIRC they essentially have a debt that is impossible to pay off and keeps them more or less in perpetual poverty.

I'm not sure what the end goal is for the native Hawaiians. Do they want to revert back to simpler times, be isolationists? Sorry but that isn't going to work.

Do they want more autonomy? A say in what happens to their land? Then we need to work with them and maybe secession/independence isn't necessary.

The issue isn't really governmental, it's corporate. We've got private interests gobbling up land and making shady deals, it has little to do with the federal government AFAIK. Every so often, yes, we hear about a military base poisoning the ground and that's terrible but the real issue is wealthy non-native folks buying land for private use, hotels and shopping centers paving over the land, etc.

They tried that. Then they were sued and the court said they can't be exclusionary; they had to let all locals in their org.

---

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/30194206/hawaiian-con-con-controversy/

Taiwan is part of China, same applies to Hong Kong. Hawaii? No idea... it's part of USA, but no idea what culture is like there... probably different to the US.

All I know is that my white self isn't welcome in Hawaii the same way my American self isn't welcome in the UK (particularly England). Bad enough a certain Japanese company got a lot of hell for hosting a TCG tournament in Honolulu next year.

Though I'm pretty sure Hawaii and Taiwan have very differing situations here.

I'm sorry, what? What makes you think you're not welcome in Hawaii? Have you ever been to any of islands? Like... seriously? lol

Isn't Horgen in Hawaii?

On vacation? I think you mean Hallenbeck, but I could be wrong.

I thought he lives in Hawaii. Could be wrong.

I agree with this. One the one hand you have an authoritarian country aiming to swallow up a democracy and on the other local tribes that are already part of a racially mixed state wanting independence. So without any substantial knowledge on the latter, I wouldn't put those two movements in the same basket.

This is why. Hawaii has a bit of an anti-tourism movement.

Horgen is from Norway. Think they're a bit different.😛

Well, hell. Which mod was it was from Hawaii? I remember them posting hurricane updates one time when a storm drifted that way.

I think you're right.

Ah yeah, I remember the Al Bundy icon now. Pretty sure that's him.

I'm still perplexed why race has anything to do with that.

@br0kenrabbit: what made you think about this comparison between Taiwan and Hawaii?

They seem to be very different situations.

Big nation suppress small island; in the abstract it's not so different.

People just seem to be a bit hypocritical of accusing others of doing what their country has done. I just like flipping the script a little to see how people justify it.

@br0kenrabbit: I think they are similar In a very different way that you think.

Ethnic Chinese were not the original inhabitants of Taiwan. That island also has native Americans.

They are a minority now, though I am not sure about their history or current status.

@mrbojangles25: Haiti isn't a great example, because they were arguably worse off before independence.

Pre-independence, it was the richest slave colony in the world. The slaves fought Napoleon (and everyone else) for their freedom, and the centuries of crippling debt was the price they paid for peace and international recognition.

So it's quite a different situation to Taiwan (which views itself as the displaced government of mainland China), and Hawaii (which was colonised, but wasn't run as a slave colony afaik).