Winter Storm Proves EVs Are a Flawed Solution

I have argued several times that EVs were the wrong choice, and the tech just keep proving me right.

EVs in cities like Chicago (where I live) are essentially street art right now because EVs can't handle brutal winters. You can read about it here. Or, you can watch it here.

Cold temperatures cause gasoline to thicken, and condensation in the gas tank can lead to issues like ice in the fuel line, also the battery can die, and other issues, so they're not absent of issues in cold weather either.

EVs can at least keep the engine/battery warm enough during cold weather.

Either way, supposedly hybrid is the best choice for now, lowest cost for maintenance and repairs over the lifetime of the vehicle, next is EVs, and then gasoline.

Like all vehicles, there are pros and cons. In this case, the cons are greatly exacerbated by communte length and cold climate. None of this is new; we've had EVs for like 15 years now so let's not act like it is. People have managed okay and will continue to.

If you're picking up an EV, know what you're getting into. Especially if you don't have your own garage. Very do-able if you can't charge at home, but know what your options are so that it doesn't become an inconvenience or burden and you'll have a good time.

Owning an EV in Canada is dumb, unless you happen to live in one of the few milder cities/towns. Especially when you're getting emergency texts from the city/province about reducing electrical consumption and warning of rotating power outages due to pressure on the electrical grid.

A small growing pain that's reflective of typical winter storm issues, which includes normal cars being dead and unresponsive, is hardly an indictment of the entire industry.

Woh woh woh...you're saying cold weather is tough on cars!

GTFO!!!! I had no idea! I thought EV's were this perfect vehicle given to us by God-Emperor Musk!

Yes it is! STUPID HIPPIES!

😋

In all seriousness, this sums up how I feel. EV's are not perfect, and Tesla's especially are starting to show their faults both in their product and their quality of service. But other cars are flawed, too, and experience issues in cold climates.

Not really sure where this "HAHAHA stoopid EV owners" attitude comes from, though. I want to say it's yet another deranged far-right tool looking to dunk on what he perceives to be liberals (ironic, given that many conservatives and moderates own EV's), but I don't know @dabear 's politics well enough to assume that.

Moving on.

How about people just drive what they want to drive and stop trying to convince others that they are wrong.

@mrbojangles25: If you *choose* to have an EV, I have no issues.

The government *forcing* me to buy an EV... I have a problem with that.

@dabear: Has the government forced you to do so?

@mattbbpl: The laws are in place by some states banning ICEs over the next few years.

They are banning the sale of new ICE cars, not an outright ban of them entirely.

With that said, while I have mixed feelings on the subject, I think this is a step in the right direction. While removing choice is rarely a positive thing, I think sometimes people need to be saved from themselves. The default (ICE cars) choice has been a really terrible choice for far too long and we have to do something about it.

Hopefully by the time 2035 rolls around EV will be sorted out; I imagine they will be, there is a lot of demand for them.

@mrbojangles25: Not banning, huh?

I'll just leave this right here...

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/states-banning-new-gas-powered-cars/

@dabear: disagreed from my own personal experience. I drove around 250 miles round trip in a 10 year old tesla model S in almost 30f. There was tesla charging stations in between so it was possible.

This tesla didn't even have the heat pump system of the newer tesla, and it was just using resistance heating, otherwise I might not have needed to even charge as often.

Alot of those articles you cited are clickbait nonsense. Sure, the tesla might not get you 200 miles on one charge in your bs scenario, where you're literally in the middle of no where AND in the dead of winter AND you decide to take a road trip AND you forgot to charge the car over night at home AND all the charging stations happen to be full AND you decide to ignore the cars navigation system warning that you won't make it that far.

Then again, there's alot of people out there, and some of them are just that stupid.

@blaznwiipspman1: Clickbait nonsense?

This happened yesterday in Chicago! One of tbe links is a YouTube video of ABC news in Chicago (Channel 7).

"Banning the sale of" not "Banning the use of".

You really think they're going to make people suddenly stop using millions of ICE vehicles? You think the state government is going to just sell (to who?!) their massive fleets of ICE vehicles?

You're bordering on hysterical there, my friend. You want to be upset about having to drive to Nevada to purchase an ICE vehicle, that's fine, I get that...but no one is coming to get you, and no one is saying you can't use the ICE vehicle you already own.

Crazy shit happens all the time.

The trick is not losing your mind when it happens. Not assuming it's the norm.

Just breathe, dude. Everything is going to be just fine.

@mrbojangles25: Yes, they will ban new cars with ICEs. If I lived in one of those states, and I wanted a new car, I'd be *forced* to buy electric.

Just proves there's tons of morons out there. I just watched a video of a tesla torture test, -15F with terrible winter storm conditions, and the car still managed around 140 miles. So these people decided to not charge their cars over night, left it in a minimal charge state during an epic winter storm🤦‍♂️.

Unfortunately there are a lot of dumb people out there, who bought EVs, not knowing their limitations. Some things need to be baby proofed to such an extent to account for the lowest common denominator unfortunately.

I believe EVs get a 10-yr battery warranty in Canada, due to the cold. I've seen tests where increasing the heat reduces the mileage by a fair amount. Then you have to actually justify the mining of Cobalt. Sadly, EVs don't seem to be the be-all-end-all of driving.

Correct.

Initially you said they are banning ICE vehicles en masse. They aren't; just the sale of new ICE vehicles. You can still use your existing vehicle, can buy used vehicles, and can purchase in a different state.

What exactly do you have against electric vehicles, if I may ask? They're already fairly affordable, there are a variety of options, and I believe hybrids (ICE + electric) are still allowed under the new regulation.

This is progress. I'm not really sure what they harm is. They're not taking your existing cars away or anything. This will create more jobs. Encourage innovation.

@mrbojangles25: I don't want the government telling me what I can and cannot buy.

If the industry had dumped as much money into synthetic fuels or hydrogen, we'd be better off today.

I don't hate EVs - I hate the idea that if I want a new car from the factory, the state can tell me I have to buy an EV.

The government does this with all kinds of things. I get it, you don't want things to change, but at the same time you need to realize government regulation is often done for good reasons. This is less about "muh freedom" and more about "making the world a better place".

Without government regulation, we'd still be having women painting radioactive paint on watch faces and flight instruments as their bones turn to honeycomb and tumors the size of oranges grow in their chins. Without regulation, there'd still be sawdust in our bread and shit in our hamburgers.

This might be one of the good regulations.

No doubt people flipped out when we had to stop adding lead to gas. Or when we had to start wearing seatbelts.

@mrbojangles25: Well, you can let big government dictate your life if you want. I will remain silent and let the government tell me what to do.

You libertarian? You don't really seem to understand the point of a government.

ICE is better. Vroom vroom

Even birth control pills and abortions!? How about cannabis or crack cocaine? Asbestos products?

So you don't even wear a seatbelt? Do you stop at red lights? Still crying about coal?

Sadly climate change exists, and we can't just keep ICE Vroom Vrooming.

Those comments are beyond ridiculous. If you want to be part of the conversation, come up with better stuff bro, because what you wrote is too dumb to comment on.

Aww, he couldn't answer my questions...looks like I easily pinpointed gross hypocrisy or forgetting we've phased out dangerous things in the past too. But that's your fault for making obscenely unspecific comments like a 15 year old who just learned about libertarianism.

"Gubment can't tell me nuthing!!1"

Sure buddy, except that they already do and you're even FOR some of it. Anyway, be specific, say you were just talking about transportation phase outs in 11 years. Which we are in dire need of. In which case this is worthless whining.

I know the point of government.

I also know that despite several attempts in history, the government cannot create demand. When it does, it fails spectacularly.

I also know that there are potentially better alternatives to EVs, but the govt put all their eggs in one basket and are trying to shove one tech down our throats.

Keynesian economics does not work.

It's telling to me that all of the people in this thread are hell-bent on embracing big government. I wonder how you all will feel when that big government suddenly decides to not think like you do...

@robertos: Still too dumb to comment on. Try harder.

Well this entire thread is low IQ. You're whining about a phase out of sales that starts in 11 years of ICE vehicles, which is very much needed going by climate studies. Charging Infrastructure should change dramatically by then, unless we get more pushback by the anti-science far right. We currently have a sluggish roll out for charging stations, but that's the opposite problem of what you're talking about - not enough government.

As I alluded to in my first post, we already had entire product and industry shifts due to much needed regulations and/or increased renewables. It's like crying about coal jobs or asbestos products a decade before the shift, even though you know it was needed or inevitable.

You can complain about the state of and potential alternative ZEVs for said decade.....without the hypocritical and frankly fake Dave Ruben "muh gubment" schtick (which I started off on humiliating).

@robertos:

Nah gonna keep vroom vrooming and nobody going to stop me!!

Them batteries need cobalt and are using child slavery and destroying the earth to get it. There is no moral high ground with EVs

Not yet. Give it a decade or two though, it's going to have to be and will be phased out.

Just like coal, just like asbestos products, etc. Society move forward. The Dave Ruben types get left behind and keep crying.

Yes, that is exactly what we said. They are banning the sale of *new* ICE vehicles.

I got no horse in this race regardless. I get everywhere via bicycle. I dislike cars, both EVs and ICE cars.

We just got to vote in people who refuse bans on ICE vehicles.

We going to stop em.

Vroom Vrooooooom!!!

EVs are trash 🗑

You don't think we'll eventually have to phase out fossil fuels? Climate Change is real and a problem.

@robertos: Some may accept that climate change is real but do not believe it is influenced by human activity, so you may have to go further than just that statement. I think they would expect a solution and proof that it would be effective, but if they do not accept science tying climate change to human activity then it seems like it would be difficult convincing them of science that would gauge the effectiveness of a solution too. It seems like some would believe that the science is phony studies that are only corroborated by other phonies, or backed by lobbyist funding, and that the legit science is suppressed.

All electric communication going down? Lets lower it a couple of notches. Some cities in Norway are slowly switching to electric busses. And while cold weather has been a problem, the biggest issue has been the amount of snow coming in short time in those cities along with the wind.

They are learning by experience.

@robertos: Even if you don't phase them out, they will run out.

You've misunderstood what's happening. Nothing is happening over the next "few years". "Several years" from now (2030-2035), the sales of *new* ICE vehicles will cease. Obviously there will be tens of millions on the market you can still buy if you still want one used. Hell, maybe by then you can 3D print your own or something. lol. But they will not simply stop existing nor will you be kicked out of a state for driving one.

Hope that gives you some relief. My hope is that by then, the tech will have advanced so that even if we had the choice, we wouldn't want one anyway. By then we may see 700-1000 mi range on a charge (500 in the cold lol) and 10-20 min average charge times, charging stations everywhere, and maybe even other technologies reaching market viability (like hydrogen). Like, who would want an ICE car in that scenario? It would be like wanting a horse & buggy when the model T is available. Better acceleration, better performance, 3x the drive distance on a charge, better winter reliability (though with less range), less maintenance and care, and (presumably) for a similar price. Outside of the engine sound, what even would be the value prop for an ICE vehicle?

Which brings up another point: Do not buy an EV. Lease it. The value on them drops like a stone and better battery tech is not that far away. You don't want to get stuck with something with poor range when the era of superior battery tech and charging speeds begins.

@receding801: It's not about EVs. it's about government interference in the private sector. It's about a state like CA telling me what I can and can not buy.

You may be fine with big government telling you what yo do, I am not.

CA trying to shove a square peg into a circle.

If you let it happen organically, let the EV market do its own thing naturally, let its infrastructure get to the level of gas stations in this country. EVs will naturally take market share if the product is better and more convienant than ICE and gas.

But it's not, so they going to start using the law to slow down ICE to push an inferior product. It's a scam. I don't have any issue with EVs. If somebody wants one buy one. But The government shouldn't be putting restrictions on the alternative. (The alternative which our entire infrastructure is currently built around)

EVs are expensive, they can't charge as fast as filling a tank, they are not easy to fix your self (they build them make sure you have to bring it to a specialist shop), the infrastructure for EVs across the country is no where near rivaling gas stations. Half my job is traveling, I drive all across the state and sometimes out the state. No way in hell would I ever want an EV... the charge stations aren't abundant, charging takes too long, the cars are expensive, they aren't easy to fix when something goes wrong, and to top it off... your not saving the environment anyway buying one, these batteries are relying on mining in third world countries on slave labor. The charge stations run off diesel. China is the biggest producer of this product and they can't wait for dumb ass Americans to push EVs and make them rich.

And the world will continue to warm as it was before. But people can pretend to be better than everyone else , you can pretend that you a saving the earth in your ev like a teenage girl who just got her first iPhone.

Fossil fuels aren't going anywhere anytime soon. People are dillusional that think otherwise.

@sargentd: Well said!

Can't let it happen naturally, due to man made climate change. We don't have all the time in the world to replace fossil fuel industries in a few century, it's gotta be quicker than that. So your theory just falls flat in the face of that specific crisis.

They have to eventually restrict ICE and other fossil fuel industries due to climate change.

This is where we need more government, to fix that.

False,

Factcheck: 21 misleading myths about electric vehicles - Carbon Brief

This is doubly false. As Carbon Brief showed in its 2019 factcheck, it takes less than two years for a typical EV to pay off the “carbon debt” from its battery. Over the full vehicle lifecycle, carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions from an EV are around three times lower than an average petrol car.

Not if we target each industry causing the problem and slowly try to phase it out. Since climate change is human caused.

Correct, the ban of mere sales of these cars are 11 years away. Delusional people are saying otherwise to fear monger.

@robertos: The carbon footprint payoff is False. It is based on an ICE car getting crappy MPG (i believe 26mpg). If the same study was done with an efficient hybrid, the payoff is longer than the life of the car.

Nice try.

I think you're taking this to an extreme when it's really a moderate issue.

Government is how we get things done. Government is how we make progress. Government is how, collectively as a people, we come to compromises and make the world a better place.

That's the ideal, at least.

As it is now, the private sector cannot be trusted. We've been lied to by vehicle manufacturers. We've been lied to by the fossil fuel industry. As I said earlier, if it were up to the private sector, and if the government did not intervene, we'd still be eating sawdust in our bread and serving our babies food stored in lead containers. Laws and regulations are often written in blood, our blood, spilled to benefit the private sector.

At some point we will need to get off fossil fuels: why not start that movement now? Before things get shitty?

Anyone thinking this is about "Big Brother" coming into our lives and being dictators has conspiracy brain, I hate to say. This is about progress and the greater good.

Are there worries to be had? Yes, but it has nothing to do with whether or not you can buy an ICE vehicle or not. Me personally, I'm worried about the infrastructure; for whatever reason we seem to be anti-nuclear and renewable energy doesn't seem to be really substantial enough at this point, so we need to build that up first I feel like before we can go charging a few million cars every day.

Aren't hybrids exempt from the ban? I thought I read something about "plug-in hybrids", not sure what the plug-in vs "non plug-in" means, though.

“All studies agree that electric vehicles save between 50 to 70 percent CO2 equivalents and that the time needed to recoup the additional emissions caused by battery production is one to two years. The more you drive, the faster you'll recoup.”

🤷‍♀️

Are electric vehicles definitely better for the climate than gas-powered cars? | MIT Climate Portal

The researchers found that, on average, gasoline cars emit more than 350 grams of CO2per mile driven over their lifetimes. The hybrid and plug-in hybrid versions, meanwhile, scored at around 260 grams per mile of carbon dioxide, while the fully battery-electric vehicle created just 200 grams.

And while internal combustion engines are getting more efficient, EVs are poised to become greener by leaps and bounds as more countries add more clean energy to their mix. MIT’s report sees gasoline cars dropping from more than 350 grams of CO2per mile to around 225 grams by the year 2050. In that same span, however, battery EVs could drop to around 125 grams, and perhaps even down to 50 grams if the price ofrenewable energywere to drop significantly.

🤷‍♀️