Florida Republicans going full Orwellian

A bill backed by Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis that would prohibit Florida's public schools and private businesses from making people feel "discomfort" or "guilt" based on their race, sex or national origin received first approval Tuesday by the state's Senate Education Committee.

The Republican-controlled committee approved the bill with six Republican senators in favor of the bill and three Democratic senators opposed to it.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/19/us/florida-education-critical-race-theory-bill/index.html

They want a safe space as big as the state. I guess those Native American museums are going to have to kill the 'Trail of Tears' section, hunh?

What a bunch of goons.

Revisionism is an important aspect of fascism.

What does that even mean.

You use CNN as a reference for news? You might as well get your news from the stall in a restroom.

I know, it's not Fox News or some Youtube Asshole. I get one pass.

A very common thread among actual authoritarians is that they love to proclaim to be pro-freedom.

I see the common usage of the word "freedom" to promote their values to be a red flag.

So yeah, I am not surprised, Ron De Santis is incredibly authoritarian and it disturbs me thinking that he might replace Donald Trump in 2024.

When they start hugging and kissing flags you know they're full despot.

What a bunch of snowflakes.

I guess facts do care about feelings.

Can you link to where in the bill it would not allow museums, or curriculums to allow discussion on said material?

Sounds great. No more teaching concepts designed to divide us against each other in schools. Sounds like a win win!

Also, please cite the part of the bill where you think Native American Museums will have to kill the Trail of Tears section.

Finally:

private businesses from making people feel "discomfort" or "guilt"

"people" or "Employees"? Pretty big difference there. Especially in the case of the aforementioned museums.

Assuming you're talking about bill 148, here it is (lines 44 -50):

https://flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/148/BillText/Filed/HTML

44 (8)(a) Subjecting any individual, as a condition of 45 employment, membership, certification, licensing, credentialing, 46 or passing an examination, to training, instruction, or any 47 other required activity that espouses, promotes, advances, 48 inculcates, or compels such individual to believe any of the 49 following conceptsconstitutes discrimination based on race, 50 color, sex, or national origin under this section:

So did you actually read the bill in question to confirm what it does? Or just believing his post as far as what it actually does without checking?

Authoritarian is actually forcing people to go through training that's not all that different from struggle sessions in Maoist China. In fact, this is the opposite of Authoritarianism. None of these concepts are being banned. NONE.

Anyone who wants to teach this divisive stuff, is still free to do so in the privacy of their own homes, and people are still free to sign up voluntarily for any of this.

@Stevo_the_gamer said:

This isnt the first time he has gone on an authoritarian streak. The guy has had a looong history of authoritarianism.

I have and no matter how you spin it. THIS is antithetical to freedom.

That is why I SPECIFICALLY mentioned "freedom" as glittering generalities. Because the policy does that while effectively doing the opposite.

Wait, the people who say there's an epidemic in the country of people being harassed or made to feel inadequate based on their race are disagreeing with a bill that the OP says will "prohibit Florida's public schools and private businesses from making people feel "discomfort" or "guilt" based on their race, sex or national origin?"

Good grief. The tribalism and double standards are in full effect in this thread. If he had a D by his name they'd be worshipping the ground he walks on.

@eoten: Pretty sure both me and br0ken rabbit are not a fan of safe spaces either. We kinda oppose this bill for the exact same reason.

Explain what "freedoms" are being violated?

Can this stuff still be taught at home? As an elective? Can a private company offer this sort of training outside of company time without requiring people to do it? Yup.

This isn't spin. A bill that makes it illegal to FORCE people to go through a particular type of indoctrination is NOT antithetical to freedom.

If it banned everyone from accessing it on their own time, THAT would be authoritarian.

The term has become oversaturated, and its meaning diluted.

@Stevo_the_gamer: Welcome to 2022 where a bill outlawing forced indoctrination = "Authoritarian" or "Owellian".

If Orwell were still alive, I'm pretty sure I know what he would have to say about all of this.

Based on how I interpreted the bill, no. And then there are ways it will inevitable be abused. As we have seen in law over and over.

This very much infringes on the rights of business owners. Much like how they were no longer allowed to enforce mask mandates in their own business.

You are taking away the rights of businesses to run their business as they please. And over what, some hurt feelings?

This is just a large safe space legislation. That is all there is to it.

Don't get me wrong, I do think this behaviour is pretty scummy. But I wouldnt legislate against it.

I guess the question is what will conservatives spin as indoctrination. What exactly will this bill prevent that is currently being done in FL?

If it won't be abused, then it just seems like political fluff. Culture war nothing burger law made just for votes. Like their CRT Bill, even though no k-12 FL school was teaching CRT lol.

Interesting. Should a private business be allowed to hire/fire someone only based on race, sex, or ethnicity then?

Over here in Sweden, we already ahve those restrictions at times. For some jobs only women will be hired and so on.

Like iwth the above. I think it is scummy. I would legislate against it knowing full well that what I did is kind of authoritarian in its own way. Although it wouldnt be anywhere near the top of my political priorities.

But the real question is, what would be the consequences of this bill? In the case of hiring discrimination. In the case of diversity training, which I believe this bill is trying to go against, what harm is there? Whose livelyhoods are being harmed over them? At most there are some hurt feelings, boo-hoo.

@Maroxad: Do you think a business should be permitted, as a condition of employment, to require all employees to affirm their devotion to Jesus Christ, our lord and savior? Perhaps make it required to recite the lord's prayer at the start of each school day?

Because it's the exact same mindset. You can't have it both ways. Either people are free to believe what they want, and express what views they want, or they aren't.

Banning mask mandates for private businesses, IS somewhat authoritarian yes. But so is forcing mandates on businesses. But there's nuance there, as we already know, that in order to save lives, sometimes a few authoritarian measures may be required. I'm not sold on those measures for covid necessarily, but im not fully opposed if something far more deadly comes along one day.

That being said, if rabies ever went airborne with no cure, and had a 99.999% fatality rate, I can't imagine you'd have many people breaking health guidelines. And if there were, their neighbors would probably deal with them pretty swiftly before the government even had a chance to step in.

A great example of this was London during WW2 requiring all windows be blacked out at night so the Nazis couldn't see where to drop bombs.

Many many stories of neighbors taking EXTREME action against people who didn't comply. Government not needed lol.

There is a difference between diversity training and requiring all employees to submit to an ideology. But they should be allowed to preach Christianity daily if they so please.

I do however agree with you that authoritarianism is not always a bad thing. I just find it deeply hypocritical when you have authoritarians, who often refuse to own up to it.

@zaryia:

Taking a kid to church and telling him/her that's the truth is indoctrination. But that's done outside of schools, and not forced on anyone else's kids.

Likewise, teaching your own child stuff like Kendi's or D'Angelo's "anti-racism" ideas, and claiming it's the truth is also indoctrination. Which is fine, if it's only being taught to children of parents who actually WANT it imo.

What would this bill end that's currently going on in FL?

I am glad, we can find common ground here. Authoritarianism is not alwyas a bad thing, it ultiamtely depends on context.

My whole issue is people who refuse to own up to what they really believe.

@Maroxad:

"There is a difference between diversity training and requiring all employees to submit to an ideology. But they should be allowed to preach Christianity daily if they so please."

If diversity training is required rather than merely offered, then that is indeed being required to submit to an ideology.

What do you mean by "They should be allowed to preach Christianity"?

If we're talking about a business preaching to employees, as long as it's something that is offered and can be opted out of with no penalty, I would even agree with that.

Once it becomes a condition of employment to sit through sermons, or write affirmation statements on how you plan to incorporate Christ into your life moving forward, we have a problem.

Chick-Fil-A already pretty much already requires their employees to adhere to christian values. But I will not go on a crusade against them.

@zaryia: Why does it have to even happen in Florida for it to be a problem? Ever hear of being proactive rather than reactive? If nazis were making a comeback in one state/province, should we wait for it to actually start happening in our own states/provinces? Or take measures to prevent it from even getting a foothold?

And if you truly feel none of this is going on, and nobody is pushing for this in Florida, how widespread do you feel we should allow it to get before action should be taken?

@Maroxad: If it's a condition of employment at Chick Fila, I would certainly support any movement that went against that. But I do admit I probably wouldn't be the first to START a crusade against it.

I dunno, it seems like culture wars vote bait and a solution looking for a problem.

Well, I get that a lot of "culture wars" stuff is pretty frivolous, but many parents, myself included, feel pretty strongly that their kids shouldn't be forced to learn stuff like this. I'm vehemently opposed to any doctrine that encourages viewing each other via our differences, rather than our shared humanity, and what we all have in common as people.

A great alternative that is just getting off the ground that offers a way to address racism without being divisive imo is https://www.fairforall.org/. One of their most prominent members/speakers is Daryl Davis, the guy who has so much compassion that he actually goes and meets with KKK members, and convinces them to leave the KKK. He collects their hoods as souvenirs. Ironically, I don't believe in Christianity any longer, but if there were a modern day version of Jesus Christ, as far as what is in his heart, Daryl would probably be it. Talk about being able to love anyone and turn the other cheek.

Looks like Florida is going to sanitize history. And they wonder what Americans are less educated than other countries.

CRT is a college legal course. No one is teaching it to K-12 in FL. Democrats may as well make a law saying Republicans shouldn't teach KKK courses anymore and make a law banning that - and it would be the same kind of frivolous culture wars voter bait showboating FL GOP is doing.

@zaryia: In your example though, this WOULD ban KKK teachings. As they would be all about viewing everyone through the lens of race, no?

I mean, I'm pretty sure the KKK believe and teach that white people are superior to others, which this bill explicitly prohibits.

I don't see that as a problem, and I'm not Christian. If there's a business that is clearly religious in nature or ran by people who are, they wanting employees who are as well doesn't bother me. Nobody is forcing someone to work for them, they could always find a different job. The only problem I have is when government starts mandating a certain ideology be taught, or we begin forcing ideology on people who cannot make the choice, like school children. The disaster that is schools though is another topic entirely.

Why are most your comments some over-the-top, exaggerated doomsday prediction over everything? Nobody is "sanitizing history."

Oh look, more republicans sounding the dog whistle with CRT scare mongering. Who would have thought!?

This reminds me of that one South Park where white people publicly disgraced for their notorious utterances of the n-word lobbied to make it illegal to be called "the n-word guy", but not actually the n-word itself; dear lord Florida, you're like comedy satire.

I think the GOP would be more productive to tackle real issues as their main points rather than fake ones like CRT and mass 2020 election fraud.

In the United States, we have federal laws to prevent the firing/hiring of individuals due to an immutable character such as race/sex/gender/ethnicity, etc. You'll be hardpressed these days not to see "equal opportunity employer" being listed in job descriptions which stem from that.

That depends on your definition of "harm" and whether clearly racist material can actually meet that mark, or can training/teachings at all meet said mark regardless. But I'm also confused on why livelihoods being "harmed" is a measure to justify for, or against, a piece of government regulation? Is that a measure you judge legislation by?

FL is on the upswing while places like NY and CA are on the downswing.

NY and CA player counts are bleeding.

FL has been booming

There are plenty of reasons for this.

I honestly didn't expect FL to be the #1 state to lead on individual freedom. Always thought it would be Texas.

DeSantis is honestly doing a fantastic job with Florida. I would not be shocked at all if DeSantis runs and is America's next president.

Was CRT mentioned in the Florida bill?

I laughed. Florida Republicans - biggest snowflakes.

I particularly like lines 71-73. Mostly because they don't realize that is going to cut both ways.

Looking forward to the mental gymnastics to come from the Florida Taliban.

So, you are also against states forcing mask mandates onto private businesses?

It makes the country less free. But not necessarily worse off.

Instead of looking at the world through a naive, less regulations = always better, look at things through a consequentialist lens.

I am pretty sure these diversity training courses are being done because there is a gain in utility. Hence why corporations spend both a good chunk of money, and labour, on them. I dont see any evidence either way though, unlike with mask mandates.

Also the people enforcing mask mandates are not pretending they are all about freedom.

No, I look at it without double standards. If it's wrong for government to mandate one thing, it's wrong for them to mandate the other. And once given the power to do one thing, they're also given the power to do the opposite.

Who decides whether or not someone is worse off? Who determines if it's okay for rights to be stepped on for some greater good? And what stops that person from wielding that power from using it maliciously?

Banning teaching false information that affects children is the correct thing to do. People on this topic calling people who support banning this snowflakes are the same people who support the removing of statues because the hurt some ones feelings. You can't support one thing and appose another that are the same.

This whole thread is like some sort of else world or something.

I think the bottom line is that there are double standards in everything, so anything can be used for "evil" by someone who has evil intent. Even the concept of basic neutrality can be used for "evil" purposes by choosing to abstain from a situation, for the purpose of allowing an emerged problem to persist and metastasize.

In the case of Florida's schools, there was/is no "woke" issue, just ginned up, manufactured "culture war" stuff. There is no actual problem, just a perceived one. The line in the bill about "discomfort" or "guilt" was SPECIFICALLY written in there for white people to assuage some fear that white children were being indoctrinated to hate themselves and "their" country (please someone, prove me wrong...). And how were they being taught to "hate", by being taught actual history, and that history bringing about feelings of "discomfort" and "guilt".

This is insane.