NPR: America's Christian majority is on track to end

NPR

Eliza Campbell had spent her entire life as a practicing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

She was born in Utah, a state in which the majority of residents belong to the church, and attended Brigham Young University, a private institution owned and operated by the church.

"It's part of your whole professional network, your whole emotional community," she said. "Basically, it touches every facet of your life."

Then, two years ago, after nearly three decades, Campbell left the church.

She is one of a growing number of Americans who were raised Christian but are disaffiliating from the religion.

America's Christian majority is facing steep declines

Christianity remains the majority religion in the United States, as it has been since the country's founding, but it's on the decline.

A new study from the Pew Research Center shows that America's Christian majority has been shrinking for years, and if recent trends continue, Christians could make up less than half the U.S. population within a few decades.

The study found that Christians accounted for about 90% of the population 50 years ago, but as of 2020 that figure had slumped to about 64%.

"If recent trends in switching [changing one's religious affiliation] hold, we projected that Christians could make up between 35% and 46% of the U.S. population in 2070," said Stephanie Kramer, the senior researcher who led the study.

The study modeled four scenarios for how religious affiliation could change, and in every case it found a sharp drop in Christianity.

While the study does not grapple with the question of why Christians are disaffiliating from their religion, Kramer said there are some theories that could help explain this phenomenon.

"Some scholars say that it's just an inevitable consequence of development for societies to secularize. Once there are strong secular institutions, once people's basic needs are met, there's less need for religion," Kramer said.

"Other people point out that affiliation really started to drop in the '90s. And it may not be a coincidence that this coincides with the rise of the religious right and more associations between Christianity and conservative political ideology."

For Campbell, conflict between the teachings of her faith and her own personal identity and values were at the core of her decision to leave.

"For me, especially, when I started to come out as queer, it became impossible for me to reconcile this church that was basically admitting that they wanted kids like me dead or suicidal," she said. "I decided I had to choose myself and choose my well-being."

"Religiously unaffiliated" could become the majority

Alongside Christian numbers in the U.S. trending down, the Pew study also found that the percentage of people who identify as "religiously unaffiliated" is rising and could one day become a majority.

"That's where the majority of the movement is going," Kramer said. "We don't see a lot of people leaving Christianity for a non-Christian religion."

Importantly, Kramer said, "religiously unaffiliated" is not synonymous with atheist, as the term also includes those who identify as "agnostic," "spiritual" or "nothing in particular."

In the four scenarios that Pew modeled, Americans who were religiously unaffiliated were projected to approach or overtake Christians in number by 2070. At the same time, the percentage of those following other religions was expected to double.

"It's almost what I expect," Hasan Tauha, a student at Stanford University, said of the rising numbers of religiously unaffiliated people in the United States.

"I don't think it's surprising. I think it's a product of modern comforts. I think when life is good, when it's better, you know, religion is just not as important."

Tauha was not raised Christian. He spent most of his life as a devout Muslim but decided four years ago to leave his religion, and he now identifies as atheist.

Like Campbell, Tauha's process of turning away from his faith was not just a matter of changing his beliefs; it involved disconnecting with the religious community he had been involved with for his entire life.

"The process of leaving the faith, for me, was kind of torturous," he said. "[But] I look back on my experience and leaving the faith as something generally productive and positive. In fact, I'd say it remains the formative experience in my life [and] gave me a new sense of direction. So I look back on it fondly."

Honestly, at this rate, the more people leave religious movements, the better. Still, this explains why the Christian Right has been so loud and more imposing as of late.

The Christian right is obsessed with a guy that says we should grab women by their pussy and that he would **** his own daughter. I think that's a clear sign that something went very wrong.

Good Riddance.

I believe that the strong Evangelical conservativism we are seeing from various politicians right now is something of a death kneel of that ideology. Yet, I cannot help but think their death kneel makes their faith decline faster.

I know a lot of Christians--I am an American, after all--and while my attitude towards religion has cooled over the years from a very aggro anti-religious stance to a more indifferent areligious one, I still think the world would be better off without religion.

Not that I feel we should rush or persecute; people currently living as religious adults and kids already indoctrinated should be able to continue on with it should they choose to do so, but it honestly can't go quick enough.

I just think the cost that society as a whole pays for religion is too high for what the return is.

Oh, and can we tax churches yet? I mean, c'mon...it's long overdue.

That's more or less how I see it as well. They are in panic mode.

In the US, these folks are more or less behind the wheel of the far-right movement. They've made bargains with people that are about as Christ-like as the devil and have spent vast sums of cash on various campaigns, movements, and organizations.

They literally think the devil is coming in the guise of liberals.

I'm more worried about what happens when the cash runs out. When they can't lobby and legislate, I think the guns and bombs will come out and we might see some more militant extremism.

But, as you said, that would hasten the decline even more.

meh

gave up on organized religion a long time ago

And they have no one but to blame but themselves. The evangelical and conservative Christian movements in the US are a large reason why so many are turning away from the church and religion in general. People are starting to see that the ones that proclaim to love Jesus the most act very little like him. Just go look at the people championing DeSantis and Abbot for their recent stunts involving lying, deceiving, and transporting poor and vulnerable individuals for political gain. These are the false holy men that have made their bed and now doubling down on it with their cruelty.

@HoolaHoopMan: I was actually registered as a Christian, until a few months ago. Everyone born in sweden prior to 1995 was automatically registered on birth.

I was atheist, but I didnt care enough either way, to deregister my membership. Ron DeSantis however, and other people like him, made me so disgusted I left the faith officially. These people make the faith look bad worldwide.

All in all, I think the Prosperity Theology needs to be challenged. Much like we should also challenge Salafism. Not only does the Prosperity Theology explicitly go against Jesus's Teachings. But quite frankly, it seems to do more harm than good.

Don't judge all Christians by Evangelicals/Conservatives.

Ha. This is pretty funny (well not really)....

The scary thing is: They were willing to use it as a means to an end to impose their own religious beliefs on others, while loser #45 was willing to exploit that desire to gain power.

Absolute depravity.

@pyro1245: It's all about power and imposing themselves upon others.

I don't, Don't worry.

I was disgusted by Ron DeathSentance, not christians.

The public relevance of the Christian right policy is declining with voters but the GOP is compensating with a pedal to the metal approach to gerrymandering and voter suppression efforts. That's why we have a SCOTUS that overturned Roe v Wade or people like Lauren Boebert saying that religion should dictate government policy, and people like Ron DeSantis push Christian historical revisionism in the state's public education that teaches the separation of church of state is a radical misinterpretation of the constitution done by a radical SCOTUS and doesn't reflect the founders' original intentions. They really don't campaign anymore on policy, they excite their base with culture war issues, like making their people feel like the Jews in Nazi Germany with crap like the deep state radical left is trying to brainwash children into being drag queens with maniacal CRT propaganda such a the new Little Mermaid having a black Ariel.

In short, the Christian majority is still as relevant as ever, just pivoting its identity to proxies. Republicanism itself is the broader religion. It isn't based in an objective world of facts. It's powered by a destructive faith that only has room to breath in a bubble of misinformation. It's probably more akin to a cult though.

A decrease in those who identify as Christian isn't surprising.

Found this from OP's referenced NPR article interesting: "At the same time, the percentage of those following other religions was expected to double."

Other religions doubling in the coming years is pretty surprising. Immigration maybe? Melting pot effect?

Lol what crazy bullshit did you just spout? 21% of gen Z identify as LGBTQ+. Politicians don't have have to say a thing. People sometimes pay attention to what's going on around them and choose their party affiliations accordingly. When leftist and corporate media celebrate and glorify gay 🏳️‍🌈 people will either choose to be a part of it or not.

The left has thrived on culture war/identify politics for over a decade. I find leftist Democrats to be far more cultish and factual studies show leftist are more likely to disown you based off your beliefs which is far more cult like.

Well don't you sound like the tolerant one.

No one here is attacking religion, we are attacking religious conservatism. An ideology notorious for being intolerant towards other groups. No matter what faith or religion.

And if that ideology is on the way out! That is excellent news. Religion should be a personal matter, not one of public, political affairs.

As for why I said good Riddance, it has entirely to do with the fact that a more balanced and diverse religious representation can only be healthy.

some people are to blind to see that. due to their political views.

@firedrakes: Indeed, I don't like the idea of having any religious or ideological majority group in a country. A healthy balance of differing ideas is the best way to ensure people can give people a more realistic and less ideologically tinted view of the world. Which is especially important now due to how globalized our world is.

There's a clear reason why it is that more people can identify as LGBTQ+ now that ever before. It is because as a society we have grown to promote more tolerance, acceptance, and inclusiveness. It wasn't even two decades ago when sodomy laws were struck down by SCOTUS. That just really grinds the gears of people diametrically opposed to people being able to identify as such. It's becoming harder for the religious right to fight such change on religious grounds, so they've pivoted to this all being the plot of some deep state agenda to brainwash children. Ironic the fringe lunatic religious right should accuse anybody of brainwashing children when they support the use of gay conversion centers to physically and psychologically torture children into submitting to their narrow minded worldviews.

Not to mention. There is nothing wrong with 21% of Gen Z identifying as LGBTQ+.

And then there's this:

The conference distilled the animating forces of the American right at a time when Democrats control the presidency and Congress: a no-holds-barred approach to the culture wars; a turn away from laissez-faire economic policy toward one in which the cultural interests of conservatives are prioritized in decision-making; and, perhaps most importantly, a push for more religion in school and eliminating any separation between church and state.

“Without the Bible, there is no modernity. Without the Bible, there is no America,” Hawley said, criticizing the view of gender as a “social construct” as well as arguments that the U.S. suffers from systemic racism. “And their real target in all of this, I submit to you, is the inheritance of the Bible. What they [the left] particularly dislike about America is our dependence on biblical teaching and tradition.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/the-american-right-e2-80-99s-future-involves-waging-a-religious-battle-against-the-left-leaders-say-at-a-conservative-conference/ar-AA12aCIo

lulz

@br0kenrabbit: Good luck with that.

your right. remind me of a friend of mine. he atheist. i mention that is his religion i.e no god. did not like that..

but my point was stating defention of term.

That's great. Heck I think people should be banned from having a religion until their 16 or 18, choose religion only when they matured enough to understand the strength and weakness of each. These child indoctrinations have to be stopped. I mean what's the point of being in a religion when many dont even practice it.

The reign of Buddhism in America is nigh!

Seriously though: the Christian majority ending has been noted for over a decade now. An old study I read someplace years back, I think it was covered in Scientific American, showed that so many older millennials and younger gen Xr's were so put off by the cruelty and anti-intellectualism of Evangelicals that it provoked them to leave Christianity behind - regardless of polity / denomination.

The MAGA fake Christianity is hurting Christianity and they don't represent the message of Christianity. Terrible people.

Yes there is a clear reason. It's because it's glorified and used as an opportunity for every social outcast to conveintantly identify as a protected class. When I hear people tell me their gender changes day to day that is a problem. Those are not normal functioning adults.

Good. These scams should be shut down and churches should be seized and used to house the homeless.

You can't complain when you see intolerance when you are intolerant as well.

There is a reason we have these protected classes you know.

When I think of dysfunctional adults. I think of creeps who clearly make a big deal about the sexuality of people they never met.

And while I am at it, Non-Conforming people are not glorified. They are acknowledged, and are met with support, but that is not glorifying.

I am also an atheist and seeing attitudes towards religious minorities is where I got my pro-diversity views from. In a previously atheist majority community I lived in, people had some pretty disturbing views. They wanted to heavily tax churches (to the point they would go bankrupt), make them liable to be sued for mundane stuff and a whole other slew of thinly veiled bigotry and using the government as a cudgel against them.

Bigotry is bigotry and turning communities into echo chambers seems to propagate tribalistic thought. Not to mention, it stiffles innovation and social progress. America did not win the Civ 5 Culture Victory by being a monoculture. It won the Culture victory by looking forward and allowing its various cultures to intermingle.

@sakaixxPeople will have a religion, even if it is not an “organized” one. That is to say, people will be dogmatic about their morality in some way. The question is, what do people who are dogmatic about their morals cite as the source for their dogma? If it’s not an organized religion, teachers will teach some other doctrine as a basis for morality. Parents will teach some other doctrine. And “science” cannot be a doctrine for moral dogma, especially not evolutionary science, which promotes survival of the fittest. It gives no reason to look out for those who are weaker than you.

Your idea of controlling thought is scary. Then again, maybe someone like myself would like it if all people are FORCED to follow Christianity until age 18. I mean, I’m just using your logic except to push my dogma on you, just as you would want to push your dogma on others.

Just kidding. I wouldn’t want to do that because I recognize that the human heart cannot be forced into believing in God and thinking of others as more important than one’s self. I’m just pointing out the frightening control-freak nature of your proposal. May God protect us from people with such worldviews. May they not find their way into offices of power.

Anyways, as the number of Christians decline in America, so will the immorality increase. Eventually, things will get so bad that people will look back to faith for answers to their broken lives. Christians taught the world to give and to serve others. As Christianity decreases, so does selfishness and a greater emphasis on self.

Bwhuahahahahahahahaha. My god, the amount of self serving fellatio here is off the charts.

@HoolaHoopMan: Hey now. No need to be inappropriate and sexually explicit.

So where does your morality come from? I’ll bet you that it’s a borrowed or twisted version of Christianity.

I think most of us atheists get our morality from utilitarianism and empathy. We look at the consequences of an action sometimes on a case by case basis. And ask ourselves would we like to be in a position for this? And lastly, we ask ourselves another important thing... did the other person consent to this?

Murder is wrong: Because it robs the victim of all their rights and well being. As well as their future. Societies can also not function when people are killing eachother nilly willy.

Theft is wrong: Because it robs people of their possessions. A society can also not function that well, when people have no property rights, because there is not much of a reward for the ambitious.

Violence is wrong: Because of the injuries that follow. A society that revels in violence will also see itself torn apart from the inside.

In all of the 3 above examples. There is also a lack of consent on the victim's part.

Edit: To further hit the point home on the lack of positive correlation between religiosity and morality. Atheists are MASSIVELY underrepresented in the prison populace. This doesn't mean religion makes people immoral, but the fact of the matter is, morality is negatively correlated with religiosity. But correlation doesn't mean causation, atheists are generally more wealthy and educated, which means they are less likely to have to turn to crime to survive.

And considering you just implicitly implied atheists (or non-christians) are immoral. I am more concerned with your post than anything.

@Maroxad: Get up off my worldview, bro! Get your own!

But seriously, if you want to be a consistent evolutionist, you should always do what’s best for you and your gene pool. That means that if you have an opportunity to trounce someone else in order to get ahead, it’s imperative that you do so. Empathy has no place in a naturalistic worldview. Only the strong survive. So you better watch out and not be caught acting weak and being “empathetic.” That might be the moment a fellow, real evolutionist makes his move and puts you in your place.

In nature, the animals at the top of the food chain don’t give one damn about the “rights” of their prey. They’re not concerned about “consent.” They’re just gonna kill and eat, my friend. The predator’s future and the future of its offspring is what counts. You gotta be like Ghengis Khan or something. Go take what you want, and build your legacy. Otherwise, leave my worldview alone. You’re not allowed to borrow from it.

In Christianity, we have a basis for why we should not do these things. It starts with the phrase, “Thus says the Lord,” or something similar. God is our basis. Your basis really does not exist.

And I’m pretty sure that atheists are underrepresented in any and every field. Not many of you exist. You guys are abnormal. You have been and always will be an extreme minority in the human populace. Humanity has and always will seek a higher power. If you try to suppress it, you will only make the “problem” worse.

We atheists don't derive our morality from evolution. Evolution is nothing more than a scientific theory that explains the diversity of life. We get our morality from empathy, The Golden Rule has existed across a myriad of different cultures, and developed that independantly. It is clear the golden rule is derived from empathy, which we evolved (because having empathy for fellow members of our tribe/pack, helped us cooperate and thrive as a group, which is important for a social species).

At best, the theory of evolution can only really define morality in that we should probably not cause unhealthy population bottlenecks. In that, sabotaging species by killing the fittest, therefore making other species weaker, is bad for the ecosystem and thus immoral. Knowledge of common descent can also be helpful, as this knowledge helps some people be more empathetic towards animals. A lot of vegans animal personhood beliefs are founded in this fact.

In other words, understanding evolution made people more moral. By increasing their compassion for animals.

And why are you bringing up anyone burrowing from your worldview? None of us atheists burrow anything from Christianity, hell. None of Christianity's good ideas are any bit original. The only original ideas you will find are those of pure evil. There have been moral codes written in the Middle East, a millenia before Judaism got formalized, that were far superior to the dubious morality of the Old Testament. The Norse (my ancesors) arguably had a more moral and just society before Christianity was forced upon us. And the relatively secular arabian empire, was far more moral than both the contemporary european kingdoms and arab regimes of today.

Umm... do you even know what the word Underrepresented means?

Underrepresented doesnt mean that something is a minority. It means that a the percentage of atheists in prison is significantly smaller than the percentage of the population overall. In other words, atheists are far less likely to go to prison.

Are you a creationist or something? I don't see what Evolution has to do with anything here. Atheism existed before Darwin you know...

@Maroxad: I know that atheism existed before Darwin. Origin of Species was just a major turning point. And evolution is a basis of atheistic thought today.

Yes, I know what underrepresented means. But I also believe that your small numbers means that there are fewer of you who have the opportunity to commit crimes, while most people who commit crimes will admit that they believe in God because that’s the majority view of people by a lot. If you have 100 people in a room, and one of them is an atheist, and ten of those 100 people commit crimes and get thrown in prison, yet all of those ten professed belief in God, that means that 0 percent of atheists within that room committed a violent crime.

Don’t get on your atheistic high horse, though. You’re a sinner who has hurt people with your words and actions. You’ve thought terrible things about others. Those are crimes against God. Don’t think yourself guiltless, but repent.

I think that the old moral codes before Judaism or Christianity are fascinating, but I think you’re being biased in your assessment of them against Christianity, which actually does have many original ideas. We have our Christian debaters, thinkers, and philosophers who will argue with guys from the other religions, and I’ve listened to many of them and read books on them.

But you, as an atheist, borrow from religion. You stand above all who believe in God, look down on us, and think yourself “holier than thou.” In reality, you don’t have any real reason to be empathetic other than someone taught you that it’s the “right thing to do.” Whoever taught you that was a Christian or either borrowed primarily from Christianity if you’re a westerner or a European atheist because that’s the dominant form of ethos in our history.

My point is not to argue Christianity against other religions, but to say that you, as an atheist, are completely outside the ballpark and have no reason to speak on morality, which connects to my initial post regarding the decline of Christianity in America.

Edit: Well, duh, I’m a creationist, haha. I also believe in a young earth. So what?

You clearly do not know much about atheism. I suggest you learn what it actually is before spouting more nonsense. Atheism in the western world was heavily popularized following the French Revolution which happened before the birth of Charles Darwin. Evolution explains how life diversified. You don't need to know life diversified, to reject any gods.

100 is a very small sample size. 3% of all americans are atheists, but they allegedly make up around 0.1% of the prison population.

Nowhere did I say that Atheists are morally superior to theists. I explicitly stated that while the correlation between religiousity and morality is negative, it is most likely caused by other factors such as education and wealth. Religion doesnt make people poor, but poor people will often look for something, such as religion, to find meaning and comfort to their lives. The well off oftentimes don't need to point towards the supernatural to find the same meaning and fulfillment. I for one find meaning in being a steward for the future. Reforesting the local forests, building new technology which will help those who come after me, and investing in the disadvantaged, so they too can have a future.

When I am talking about original ideas, I am specifically talking about morality. The good moral ideas, are also found in other religions, and even secular philosophies. How is it that all these people come to the same conclusion? Because no matter where you live? We are all human. We all have an evolved sensation known as empathy. We don't need scriptures to come up with these ideas, because these ideas are good enough to stand on their own merit, no scripture needed.

You are in no position to assume anyone is on a high horse, when you are repeatedly accusing others of copying christian morality even after your assertion has been refuted multiple times. And then assume I am completely outside hte ballpark and have no reason to speak on morality. Reflect on what you are accusing others of. Our morality, including the morality of those who wrote the ancient religious texts, were in many cases rooted in empathy as well as their political and ideological biases. The problem however, is that these ancient texts were often written by... some very ignorant and primitive people, oftentimes, written to solidify their own power.

I brought up your creationism since you seem to repeatedly bring up Evolution as if it is some part of Atheistic dogma, and that we somehow derive morality from it. Not everyone who accepts evolution are atheists, In fact, the majority of Christians accept the theory of evolution. Creationism lost the culture war a decade ago, so no idea why you are being upset with evolution in this thread.

Edit: What exactly have I done to hurt others with my words and actions?

@Maroxad: All humans know what’s right and wrong because…

Romans 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

I think it’s great that you want to take care of the forests. I’m also all about doing what we can to preserve what God has created because…

Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

So yeah, God created the earth, so we should do what we can to take care of it while also cultivating the earth and using its resources to advance civilization.

I know that evolution is the prominent view in many circles, but that doesn’t make it right. I do understand, though, that it can make you feel better about your beliefs because it’s widely accepted by others.

Christianity’s best original idea is found here, though:

Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

As for what you’ve done wrong in life, I don’t know. That’s for you to determine and for God to reveal to you. If you’ve ever stolen, lied, hated someone, gossiped, cheated, burned with jealousy and envy, etc., then you need God to forgive you. We all have sinned, according to Romans 3.

@Zaryia

Lol. That’s the dude who cries in all the memes. Seems like he’s the one who needs help.

lol

Can't even tell if these are parody accounts anymore.

That's how loon the cons are in this section.

@The_Deepblue: Why are you trying to quote the bible in an argument against an atheist? Just to highlight how ridicilous that sounds

Regarding morality

If you could do good things for other people you had a moral obligation to do those things.

-Ben Parker

A person's evolved conscience (which is backed by evolutionary theory and psychology), is a good enough guide to tell us from right and wrong, no need to point to religiously made up mumbo jumbo.

Regarding my cultivation of plants

"With great power comes my responsibility. This is my gift, this is my curse. Who am I? I am Spider Man."

-Spider Man

I am person with a reasonably disposable income every month. At my workplace, I also come with tremendoius amount of talent, so I should use this talent (power) to make the business thrive as much as possible. Afterall, if I can do good with the tools I have in life, I should utilze them.

Regarding your superstition

"What we believe may not be the truth"

-Spiderman

Evolution is overwhelmingly proven to be true backed by evidence across nearly all sorts of disciplines, including genetics, anthropology, computer science, archeology, history, medicine. The evidence against a young earth creation is absolutely overwhelming

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation

There is a PC game that has an excellent quote, to summarize what Peter Parker said, but much better,

"Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist."

-Prokhor Zakharov, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri

Edit: And that is not an original idea. Self Sacrifice has been common throughout history. And Jesus's self sacrifice has more plot holes than swiss cheese. Even more so if you go with the interpretion that Jesus is god.

@Maroxad: I use the Bible because I believe the Bible contains the truth. I am not interested in “winning” an argument “against an atheist,” an almighty atheist. I know you guys think very highly of yourselves and think yourselves above the Bible or any religious text for that matter, but they contain more wisdom than fictional Marvel texts, which essentially borrowed from the Bible with any morality they espouse. Again, get your own worldview! You have no reason to practice anything related to morality but to only do what benefits you.

And no, I don’t believe evolution has been ”proven.” If you start with the presupposition that evolution is true (the evolution of species, that is), then I can see how you can work your way to conclude that it’s true. But it’s not, and there is no “real” scientific evidence.

You have the impossibility of existence all around you, yet you deny the God who made it and instead believe that it occurred by random chance. This world‘s existence is a statistical impossibility in every way and could not have come about apart from a creator. All of the mumbo jumbo that these scientific institutions crank out with their biases and presuppositions will not change that.

The original idea of Jesus’ sacrifice, if you read the verse I quoted, lies within the idea that Christ died for sinners, who have done evil against God and their fellow humans. He died to redeem mankind, who had done nothing and still do nothing to merit it. I know the depth is lost on you because, for all the confidence you have in your intellect as an “atheist,” you are absolutely bankrupt spiritually. That’s not healthy for you holistically as a human being. Self-sacrifice is engrained into the human experience because we recognize the beauty and the moral good of giving one’s self up for another. In an atheistic worldview, such a concept is illogical at best. Again, the originality of Christ‘s sacrifice comes in here:

Romans 5:7-8 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

You might die for your country, your children, your spouse, but that’s because those persons or entities have already done something to earn your love. That’s not the case with Christ’s sacrifice. I also realize that Jesus’ sacrifice was not the “first” self sacrifice. Being ”first” does not make something the ultimate standard, nor does being the most recent make something the ultimate standard. We can learn from what came before and also realize that we have not gotten it all figured out just because we stand on the shoulder’s of giants and claim we now know it all. The Bible itself has more than a few examples of self-sacrifice before Christ as foreshadowing to Christ’s sacrifice. You’re preaching to the choir there, Mr. Atheist.

@The_Deepblue: The bible is a book written by falliable human authors. Very much prone to the biases of their own political views as well as the culture of the era they lived in. There is nothing divine about it. This is why the bible contradicts pretty much everything we know about archeology, science and medicine. Not to mention, the shoddy attempt at retconning the other gods. Judaism, and by extension, the other abrahamic religions, became monotheistic only after first banning the worship of other gods, such as Baal (the god of fertility), and later on retconning them entirely (those are just different names for god).

And it doesnt seem you understand why I cited spiderman. I did it to highlight just how ridicilous you sound when you cite the bible to someone who doesn't care one bit for Christianity.

As has been repeatedly cited, atheists such as myself get our morals from empathy. You dont need divine texts to realize that murder and theft are bad, and these ideas have been written down long before the bible was. Empathy will make these ethics abundantly clear. Just because a commonly held moral value exists in the bible doesnt mean it originated from there. Most universal moral values, are pretty much no brainers and even exist in the animal kingdom. You don't see members of a wolf pack kill eachother willy nilly. This is because such immorality would lead to extinction. As a social species, certain traits have been naturally selected as they would allow said tribes to survive. While those that cant cooperate are selected out.

Speaking of which, opposition to religious "morality" is often what sparks atheism, whether it was in the arabian empire, renaissance and enlightenment europe, and the modern era west. People are often turned against religion because they are appalled by its cruelty. Be it the witch burnings, repression, homophobia, misogyny and as we are seeing in present day Iran, restrictive dress codes.

@zaryia:I am pretty sure they are a troll. The fact that they game a serious response to my spider man quotes, implies just that.

The funny thing is. He accuses others of acting high and mighty. But the only person trying to gatekeep anyone else away from discussions of morality is him. I think Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Atheists and everyone else are all equally capable of being moral people. We all have one thing in common: Empathy.

@Maroxad: Ah, so you were mocking me by quoting Spider-Man. Got it.

Now that I know that, I have to say that it’s wise to garner whatever wisdom you can regardless of the source, even if it’s Spider-Man but to realize that there must be an original source for what determines right and wrong (God).

I thought you were originally citing Spider Man to make serious arguments. I thought you were one of those weird Marvel fanboys who latched onto comic books and movies like it’s a religion or something. Like, I seriously thought you might be a Brony or a Furry type guy who was so desperate for a source for your morality that you looked to Spider Man, haha. I’ve met guys like that, man, so you have to forgive me for not recognizing your mockery of me.

I know that empathy didn’t originate with the Bible. It originated with God Himself. Wolves work as a pack and humans within society because God made them social creatures. In a naturalistic worldview, people wouldn’t kill one another “willy nilly” would they? They would kill and take from the weaker to weed out the weak. Shouldn’t you guys look up to people like the Colonists, Alexander the Great, or Genghis Khan, who demonstrated their dominance, raped, killed, and took what they wanted? Didn’t they even help perpetuate the species in all this? Isn’t it like 1 in 200 people on earth are descendants of Genghis Khan? Dude is a hero in the evolutionary worldview. Those guys I mentioned killed those weaker than they and established higher societies. Those guys should be your heroes.

And I guess you’re right. We need more atheistic states such as China and North Korea. Those places are so awesome. Countries with Christian histories such as those in the west are the scourge of the planet, terrible places to live in every way.

@The_Deepblue: Where did anyone advocate for state atheism?

I think most atheists want a secular society. That is to say, a live and let live approach with religion.

Want to be Christian? Go ahead! Muslim? Glad you don't eat pork! Jew? Good on you! Hindu? Beef is overrated anyways! Atheist? Sure thing! Freedom of religion and Freedom from religion are two sides of the same coin. If someone is happier worshipping a pantheon, let them do so. If someone doesnt need a pantheon to lead a fulfilling life that is also well and good.

Unlike you, I don't see someone as superior, or inferior, because of their religious group.

Genghis Khan's actions were not ok, he violated the freedoms and rights of a lot of people. No one sees evolution as some kind of ideal. It only helps us understand why the world is the way it is.

@The_Deepblue: "You have the impossibility of existence all around you, yet you deny the God who made it and instead believe that it occurred by random chance. This world‘s existence is a statistical impossibility in every way and could not have come about apart from a creator. All of the mumbo jumbo that these scientific institutions crank out with their biases and presuppositions will not change that."


how so? please show your math.

@The_Deepblue: Are you an Evangelical? You should not be attacking people. If you want to spread a good message then you show it by how you act. Attacking people has never been the way.

I think Deepblue is too far gone to reason with, or (hopefully) trolling.

Imagine the level of conspiratorial thinking you would need to engage in to determine that all of science is a hoax.

If this truly is religious belief, it seems unhealthy.