Ukraine and Russia. How will the world respond?

https://www.reuters.com/world/blinken-arrives-berlin-ukraine-talks-with-european-allies-2022-01-20/

'There are no minor incursions' pleads Ukraine leader after Biden remarks

BERLIN/KYIV, Jan 20 (Reuters) - Western countries sought to project unity over Ukraine on Thursday, after U.S. President Joe Biden suggested allies were split over how to react to any "minor incursion" from Russia, prompting Kyiv's leader to plead that there was no such thing.

"We want to remind the great powers that there are no minor incursions and small nations. Just as there are no minor casualties and little grief from the loss of loved ones," Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy tweeted in English and Ukrainian, in a clear reference to Biden's remarks.

"I say this as the president of a great power."

Russia has massed tens of thousands of troops on its borders with Ukraine, and Western states fear Moscow is planning a new assault on a country it invaded in 2014. Russia denies it is planning an attack, but says it could take unspecified military action if a list of demands are not met, including a promise from NATO never to admit Kyiv as a member.

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It was an uncommon moment yesterday when President Biden actually gave a press conference and allowed questions. Some of the answers bring up more questions than answers, and one of these definitely relates to Russia. The White House Press Secretary and VP both were on the defensive today trying to clarify the President's remarks.

It's been almost 2 months since we were last discussing this. Things haven't improved.

I'm quite concerned that the world will largely respond with token condemnation, but no real action, sadly.

I hope I'm wrong.

Well, given he's the VP of "tell president Putin I'll have more flexibility after my re-election" just prior to doing jack shit when Crimea was invaded, I predict more of the same from Biden. The rest of the world expects the US to do everything for them, so not a chance in hell anybody else does anything either. Besides, I'm not sure I should care what happens to Europe at this point.

I'm not sure. Open warfare isn't something anyone wants, but I'm of the opinion that Russia has the better ability to play chicken than the US. They're testing limits and using these sabre rattling tactics to potentially gain promises, some being insane, and some being more reasonable. Either way, it's the action of a mob run state running an extortion racket.

The best option is a unified response in sanctions and expulsion from any diplomatic relations. Isolate Russia and arm Ukraine. Theses actions have implications beyond short term relations in eastern Europe. I bet China would use this as a litmus test and sit back and watch, gauging how the world reacts.

@eoten: facts it's not in our back yard, bout time we let others deal with it. Ill be more upset if we send Americans to die over Ukraine's borders when we aren't even protecting our own. I just don't care, it's not America's problem.

If I were Ukraine, I would push as hard as possible to become a NATO member. And if I were NATO I would very much welcome Ukraine. They're an independent nation and that seems like the best and strongest move.

But as we stand, Russia is just moving troops in their own territory. It's bad neighborhood but it is what it is. It's not like they're bombing the shit out of Iraq...I mean, Ukraine.

It is concerning, it just takes one crazy leader for calamity. Rationality says there's no real danger but we never know. What really moves Putin right now? I'm really not in the mood for a WW but in case of an invasion from I do support a military response.

And looking at past wars can NATO even win a war? And Russia is not a poor nation in the desert, if China joins in I really don't know.

I honestly think and hope nothing will come out of it. But Putin is a real threat that has been aloud everything without real consequences by everyone. Maybe he's just not brown enough to bomb?

Has anyone ever considered that throughout the cold war, it was politically beneficial to countries on both sides to scare bordering states into submitting to their rule? Constant "threats" from Russia prompted several western European nations to become slaves to the NATO leadership, and likewise fear of the west prompted several eastern European nations to join the USSR.

Would Ukraine still be independent, and still be Ukraine if it was forced through coercion or fear to sign onto an organization where ultimately somebody else will be making the big decisions about the future of their nation?

I'm sure that NATO states are glad they were on that side of the Cold War. Proof being that former Warsaw pact states are now in NATO or asking to join. I wonder why?

@eoten: The imperialist tendencies of the URSS were a real threat. Countries that join the URSS done so with different degrees of willingness.

NATO has nothing to do with the administration of the member countries.

And yes, Ukraine would probably be freer if a member of NATO than if obliterated by Russia or just swallowed by Russia where they wouldn't have none.

But yeah people and nations do associate in self interest. And water is wet.

There will be economic and political retaliation, I'm sure, but no one wants to get involved in a war.

Ukraine has a long and ugly history of being invaded and fought over, I don't see why this time would work out differently for them.

I feel bad for the Ukrainians and I wish they had been members of NATO but sadly they are not.

27 European countries, Canada, and the US can definitely win a war. Hell, I think just Western Europe could probably defeat Russia.

It won't come to that. At least I hope it won't. The world is too small of a place these days for another World War to happen.

But think of the movies.

Fair point 😂

The world does need another Audie Murphy.

Putin governs like a mob boss. The correct response is to act like a bigger mob boss.

Would be a shame if such a large portion of your ground forces were to be destroyed by mistake, Vladimir.

You know Joe doesn't have the balls to do that. And even if he tried to bluff nobody would buy it. Trump could probably pull it off, especially after what happened to Soleimani, but nobody would believe Biden.

The majority of the military and equipment will be from the US as always. We are in this position because Joe Biden is weak and our allies and enemies know it. You are in more danger of war wen you have weak leaders.

@JimB: We need strong leaders that say they trust more Putin that US intelligence.

We need to hold elections based on powerlifting. Deadlifts, clean n jerks, bench, and squats.

@mrbojangles25: Make riding bears the official mean of transportation for world leaders.

I think the Russians beat us there

@mrbojangles25 said:

@ghost_of_phobos said:

@mrbojangles25: Make riding bears the official mean of transportation for world leaders.

I think the Russians beat us there

They left out the one playing Tetris.

Don't forget topless horseback riding.

What position are we in Jim? This is a bigger problem for Europe. And Biden will stand with allies anyway. You really need to turn off your propaganda sites. trump was weak. He cowered to Russia, China, North Korea. They loved it when he was president for a reason.

russia joins nato

problem solved

You can say a lot about Trump but he was not weak. They like Trump because they knew where they stood with him. He also sent them subtle messages which they got if they got out of line. Biden's actions revealed how weak he was for all the world to see which is why we are in this mess.

Strength of character, integrity, and truthfulness and not going back on your word or promises.

Don't forget running for president by hiding in your basement.

Biden said on the world stage that depending on the size of an incursion we won't do anything lol

Ukraine's leader was freaking out lmao

"Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky has hit back at comments made by his US counterpart Joe Biden about a "minor incursion" by Russia into his country.

Mr Biden had suggested that a "minor" attack might bring a weaker response from the US and its allies.

But Mr Zelensky tweeted: "There are no minor incursions. Just as there are no minor casualties and little grief from the loss of loved ones."

Russia has some 100,000 troops near the border but denies planning an invasion."

@sargentd: Usually is expected a military response in the measure of the attack. No side wants unreasonable escalation of violence. Or are you saying that if Russia sends a rocket into the middle of nowhere the response should be the same as if a nuke is dropped in Kiev?

@ghost_of_phobos: Id rather we focus on Americas Borders and not Ukraine's.

I have no interest in being involved at all. But if you are going to pretend to be involved... Biden shouldn't have chosen such poor language.

Um, what the hell. lol

(Edit: note he's talking about computer "chips" and not your favorite snack but the Twitterverse is hilarious)

@JimB: I don't think you watched the Helsinki summit when Trump was in office if you think Trump was tough. He literally sided with Russia over His own US intelligence agencies after a two hour closed door meeting. He 100% went against US interests while Putin just smiled behind him the entire time. Republicans and Democrats at the time voiced concern that he bowed and folded against a tyrant. The whole thing was recorded and documented and it was absoultley horrific To watch. Putin made Trump his bitch in front of the entire world.

No they liked trump because they could get what they wanted from him. Which makes him weak Jim.

Europe will oppose any direct securiry interventions because their economies are tied to the supply of oil and gas from Russia, and not just Europe either since world supply effects all prices even here in the states. At best just sanctions and if everyone is lucky Russia will flood market with more supply to keep everyone complacent. Surely though I imagine Ukraine is given behind the scene support of equipment and training and surveillance support and coordinating but don't imagine it will stop and committed Russian incursion.

Anyhow, another Saudi situation where nations defy their principles and bend the knee for their reliance on foreign energy. More reason to promote renewable energy and energy efficiency and not just for environmental reasons.

Russia's economy also depends on the supply of oil though.

They built up a savings account the last 10 years or so I believe. At least that was mentioned in the news here years ago.

@LJS9502_basic: "Russia's economy also depends on the supply of oil though."

That would be at risk if there was a major military intervention from allied western countries and right now there hasn't been any sort of broad international arrangement on how to proceed with the risk of a Russian incursion into Ukraine... well, not that I am aware of but I don't really follow it all that close. Doubtful there'd be a response either once the deed is done, except more sanctions. The oil will still flow though I would assume.

I think Germany should send a stern letter to Putin. That will solve this little problem.

Sale of gas is important as well I believe... And stopping that might lead to China getting involved.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-01-22/first-part-of-200-million-u-s-defence-aid-arrives-in-ukraine

200 million worth of Military aid from US arrived in Ukraine today which I'm sure Russia won't take to kindly too.

Well then I will agree with Russians not taking kindly to that. $200,000,000 more stolen from US taxpayers just to "spite" Putin over an issue that isn't even remotely relevant to us, that Europe should be the ones handling. Poland and Romania are next after Ukraine, then Germany, how much has Germany sent? How much of a tax burden has been placed on their own citizens for their own problems?

This is how it currently is in europe.

Everybody sends there personal in ukraine back to the country's they come from, everybody does there own thing as country and nobody can or will stop Russia or cares for some useless EU communist brussel activisits opinions. They all care for there own market and relationship with russia.

EU doesn't exist, the same for navo. Nobody in west of europe is going to war russia ever. It's not going to happen. Russia never lost a war and never will lose a war unlike the US which practically lost every single war they participated in. EU knows how war works and have no solution to counter russia in any way and will never result in creating a solution because it will be destructive towards there own country's anyway. which means creating a giant EU military complex. It will never happen.

US throwing is dick around on the other side of the sea screaming fire, can't do shit about it because nothing there little boats could do and no EU country will allow them to float into the EU in massive numbers because it instantly create a reaction from russia towards there country which they don't want.

And then there is the idea that most EU people probably don't care for ukraine to start with and see the point of russia as valid anyway. EU should have never expanded towards ukraine or the eastern boarder. they are buffer country's towards Russia. If the EU would have never meddled in those country's nothing would have happened.

About energy. Again EU own fault.

Every country can be Independence on this department. People can power there entire house for heat and anything they need through electricity by using nuclear power stations. They decided to not do so, because there shitty wonky gas reliance puts them in a shit spot. They decided to go the cheap route and results are as expected. If they wanted to create there own energy solution they could have made it happen in the last decade.

Germany has no power. US crippled there military and with that other EU country's because they will 100% use it on Europe to conquer it again if they are strong enough. It's basically how Germans function they never changed.

Imagine thinking 200m is going to safe ukraine from being steamrolled by russia. It's a suicide mission. The best thing ukraine government can do is surrender the first moment of attack entirely.

Has nothing to do with fragile country's thinking of turning to democracy.

Everybody wants to join the EU that's piss poor because it creates access towards the EU markets + financial support. The whole east is getting bankrolled by the west and they all want that.

The west wants them because free labor. U can basically hire 2-3 polish people for 1 dutch person and hoard them up like kettle in a house + they can exploit there country's for easy energy grids they can absolute themselves. This is why u see so much corruption in Ukraine where even biden takes part in with his son.

The east can never join the EU for the simple reason Russia will not allow it as they see the east as a extension of russia that is off the grid. It's the same way as tommorow china starts to recruit a state of the US into there country. It's instant reaction.

EU doesn't have a military, every country themselves have a militairy and those miltairy's are not goign to fight against a juggernaut called russia for endless of reasons. I can expect huge resignations of miltairy personal the moment a government sends militairy towards the eastern front as its a suicide mission + resistance from public against there own politicians. It's suicide for them also. It will never happen.

The only thing that will happen is some weak sanctions that nobody cares about.

Because russia could simple invade the next country after it if those sanctions aren't pulled back. There are tons of country's boardering russia.

NATO doesn't exist. The only reason west send a bunch of militairy towards afghanistan was to keep markets happy with the US, nobody in the EU cared for it. Ukraine has no interest for the EU to care for and will not be supported. As its on EU soil US will have to invade the EU themselves to even start a war against Russia as the EU will never do so. And if that happens, u can bet US is kicked out of the EU faster then light so there is no way in hell that's going to happen as they will lose a massive amount of influence over there over night.

Unlikes the US wants u to believe putin isn't crazy. He does exactly what the US would have done. Imagine having russia buy mexico up and start to massively expand there militairy in there that boarders with US + atomic bombs etc. But instead of just being mexico its 2 hours away from your capital. U honestly think u would allow this to happen? or would u invade mexico at this point to prevent this from happening to create distance between u and your "enemy".

EU see's Biden as weak and nothing but a puppet towards US military markets, there stances moving in 4 years from yes to no on subjects also makes them unreliable as partners. Nobody cares what biden has to say other then ukraine because EU will not allow biden to do shit on there soil if that involves making russia angry.

Unlike populaire US propoganda channels, Putin isn't seen as weak or a idiot or a tyrant in the EU. He's seen as smart powerful and workable with perfectly fine.

The reaction under here, showcases why.

That's exactly why US is seen as weak. they fully support ukraine, then pull out whenever things get real and basically fucks you over. They are not trusted in any way. It's another reason why biden is a weak president in the US and that's also why russia has no trouble going in if they want too because US government is basically a joke at this point.

US never won a war in there life. They basically only faced a defeated germany and where massively supported by the country's they invaded to get the last remaining germans out of europe. Russia won wars and won wars against enemy's far more dangerous then the US has ever been and single handedly destroyed the most powerful war machine ever created called germany that invaded them constantly.

Even today the US can't win a war for shit in a desert with goat herders as there main enemy or a bunch of Vietnamese that where so far behind them on every level they still had to surrender. Unlike what they showcase in movies and propaganda US channels, the US is seen as weak, with leadership that constantly changes there stance on things to the point they are basically nothing but additions towards a paper.

Russia will never be conquered and russia will honestly use ukraine as nuclear testing facility if they feel like it fits them. U will never win a invasion into russia because they will nuke the living shit out of the boarders if needed.

Anybody that thinks they can win against russia are simple kamikaze suicide activists. And that's why 200m support to ukraine is laughable, u basically supporting there suicide actions.

So where are those atomic bombs? in Afghanistan.

That whole debacle alone is a reason why nobody trusts US intelligence.

Then on top of that Afghanistan disaster where they stated they had still months of time and got overrun the next day.

Then on top of that, ukraine itself right now. Biden will stand completely behind ukraine, just to pull back at the last moment.

U can't relay on the US, and everybody knows it. US intelligence is honestly nothing but useless paper.

Anyway.

Ukraine is RIP. There own fault by being greedy. I hope they have a nice time being part of Russia. All made possible by the EU staging a coup in that country with the US so they could exploit the country to shit and with people honestly thinking it was a good idea to do so. Will now see the results of there ideology.

@Gatygun: you have quite the Boner for Russia. You say Russia is so big and bad but they have been wanting to invade little shit country Ukraine for how long now? Yet never actually do it, they going to actually invade it or not?

And yeah best believe if Russia was sending military equipment and bolstering weapons 2 hours from our capital we would have already leveled it lmao so what's taking Russia so long ******* P*SS*y$

Also little shit Ukraine should fight to the death for their country if they think it's worthy of saving. If Russia is going to take over make them fight for it atleast.

By the way, related with the current events, Russia in sending 200 trains of heavy military equipment to Byelorussia. Still - probably - just some flexing but this is quite a massive movement of war material.

Source: 200 trains with Russian military personnel and equipment will arrive in Belarus (belsat.eu)

In case this thing goes to shit I don't think people here are really grasping how bad things can turn. If you think this is anything comparable to Iraq or Afghanistan you are wrong by several orders of magnitude.

I'll say this, but eff China and Russia. They need an asswooping to stay in line. I don't mind us sending military aid, and even troops if needed. Whatever the case, arm the Ukrainians, send in intelligence and make sure any ukraine invasion bankrupts Russia and putin. I don't understand these damn dictators. Why even act like a pos. If Ukraine wants to join nato, they will at some point join Nato.

We need to arm Taiwan too and reaffirm our commitments there. The chinese can't be forgiven for all the damage they did with covid and still continue to do.

You seem to forget Afghanistan, Biden showed just how strong he is. It was after that our enemies were emboldened. By the way Trump took out bad guys that Obama and Biden created. Russia and China were afraid of Trump. Biden instead get paid off by them through Hunter Biden. Russia and China own Joe Biden.

@Gatygun: Wow quite a string of assumptions you put up there.

Afghanistan was always going to have that outcome. And funny you bring that up because once again it was trump who made the deal to leave and gave the Taliban everything they wanted.

The US could kick the shit out of Russia, easily, were it not for nuclear weapons. Russia's hardware is really not that great, and their economy is smaller than several US states. China is in a similar situation in terms of military technology. They may have a million soldiers but they lack the means to get them off their own continent to ever be a threat to us. Which is why the only hope either nation would have is by use of nuclear weapons. Corner them and beat them down until they believe all is lost, and that's when the big bombs start going off and everyone loses.

If you want to take down either nation, do so economically. And nobody has the balls to put reasonable regulations trade with China to achieve that. Not here, not in Europe, not Canada, Australia, nor Africa or South America. Almost every country in the world at this point runs on "made in China."