I could only misunderstand your point if you had one. Current WRPG's have started a trend of phasing out turn based combat this is true, and many people these days do dislike turn based combat...so when a JRPG comes out in 2010 with slow turn based combat, people do complain about that. The Ultimas and Wizardry's haven't seen a sequel in +/- a decade. So you really don't have a point. You're comparing games that are coming out now, to games that came out a decade ago and since people complain that the newer games haven't changed much in 30 years you're saying the same thing must apply to games created 10 years ago...which isn't true.

Outside of terrorists/spies, I don't know many people that would choose to live in a place for a couple of years knowing they hate the place or are racist against the people that live there so once again i'm missing your point in calling me a racist/japanophobe and bringing up people that are native to a country but are unsupportive of their government when none of those situations apply.smerlus

The point is that most WRPGs in the 80s and 90s were turn-based. What I'm talking about is the hypocrisy of some WRPG fanboys who hate JRPGs because of turn-based combat but would love it if a WRPG uses it. They'll hate Final Fantasy because most of them are turn-based but would still love Ultima even though most of them are also turn-based. Some of these fanboys are also the same people who hated FFXII's gambit system, but now love that system only because Dragon Age imitated it. The amount of hate that some WRPG fanboys direct towards JRPGs is getting ridiculous now.

The point is that I know a few people who've lived in Japan, but that doesn't stop them from hate many things about that country regardless. So no, just because you apparently lived there for two years, it doesn't give you some kind of cred if that's what you were hoping for. Besides, you were the one who started it with the whole "weaboo" garbage. If you don't like being called names, then don't be a hypocrite and go name-calling yourself. That's why I said I could have called you names like Japanophobe or racist if I wanted to, but didn't, because it would be stupid to use childish insults like weaboo, racist, Japanophile, Japanophobe, etc.

You on the other hand are more than willing to post garbage message board quotes, make up your own timeline, butcher logic and misquote people to make the subgenre you love seem more important than it actually is

anyways in regards to Mass Effect being influenced by anything, I think Star Wars would be a much more fitting in comparison than Skies of Arcadia. I would be able to take any of the points listed in that silly message board post and link them to a piece of star wars and can even go further than that seeing as Bioware has worked on a star wars game in the past and that Biotics closely resemble Force powers, The Jedi Council is similar in it's beaucracy as the Council in ME... Now Star Wars has been monumentously more influencial on the sci fi genre than Skies of Arcardia so only a hand full of disillusioned people would actually think Skies of Arcardia is the pillar that ME was built upon. Let us not forget about the deal clinchers here...that Star Wars had ships with guns underneath and was about saving the world far before SoA came out.smerlus

You're not proving anything by making accusations regarding my character. If you think the things I've said is 'garbage', then go ahead and prove it wrong. I still haven't seen anything from you to prove me wrong in anyway.

As for Mass Effect, it's not like I was claiming it's an Skies of Arcadia rip-off or something like you're trying to make it seem. All I was pointing out is that the Normandy and the way it's introduced has some uncanny similarities to Skies of Arcadia, that's all. Besides, it's just regarding a ship, not the plot or gameplay or anything. Besides, I was being generous there comparing it to Arcadia. If I wanted to be more harsh, I would have instead compared it to the Star Ocean series, which has far more in common with Mass Effect. Long before Mass Effect, the Star Ocean games featured space exploration, real-time action combat, dialogue choices, dating-sim elements, multiple endings, and concepts very similar to the Reapers and the Codex. With so many similarities, I'd be surprised if Mass Effect didn't borrow at least a couple of ideas from Star Ocean.

Also if you knew the history of the genre of games, which is apparent you don't, you would know that the majority of MUDs and Text Adventure games were not only unnamed but also don't exist anymore because the computers that ran these programs existed only in colleges/businesses as they were the only places you were able to find computers that could run them but also they were usually placed on these machines by hackers and unfortunately deleted once they were found. So being able to name one, let alone find information on is pretty hard to do. however google it yourself and have fun reading up on it

It's funny that you still say Japanese RPG's created games with alignment shifts when you admit that in Ultima IV, you can't beat the game with a bad alignment. wouldn't that mean that alignment shifts did exist prior to a japanese game? And as for the PST and FFVII talk. It's unfortunate that your initial post was based on incorrect information and when presented with the truth, you're unwilling to go back and look it up yourself.Chris Avellone, you know, the person you misquoted in the first place, mentioned that they borrowed two things from FFVII, spell effects and the fact that the party members specialized in only one weapon type each (which goes against normal D&D rules) He even states that the Amnesia plot device, the female leads and the rule of three theme doesn't come from any FF game. So it would be logical for them to thank the makers of FF games for those two things that they did use and that those things have nothing to do with the actual character personalities, themes or plots in the game seeing as the characters, themes and plot in PST are lightyears beyond anything found in FFVII.smerlus

What a cop-out. For someone making such a big claim about multiple endings existing in games way back in the 70s, I'm dissapointed you couldn't even come up with a single shred of evidence to back up your claim. And you can't even name one? Even I could name a few early text-based CRPGs from that time (Dungeon, Pedit5, DnD, Moria, Telengard, Oubliette, Orthanc), though none of these early CRPGs had any concept like multiple endings. I still haven't seen any evidence to suggest that WRPGs had multiple endings until the late 90s, long after JRPGs had them.

I've already explained it to you about the alignment system several times, and yet you still don't understand. Go back and read what I initially said: "Even the alignment system, where your moral/immoral actions directly affects the gameplay, storyline and multiple endings, is something that was introduced by Shin Megami Tensei". I wasn't just talking about morality here, but about how your alignment directly affects the direction of the storyline and what ending you get. This is something you could never do in Ultima IV, nor have I seen any evidence of any WRPG having such an alignment system until the late 90s.

As for that interview, Avellone said those three similar concepts ("the amnesia, Annah and Grace/Tifa and Aeris, as well as the three incarnations at the end") were not directly based on FFVII in the sense that he was not trying to imitate it in anyway, but he is acknowledging that FFVII had some subtle influence during the creative process of PST when he followed it up with "amnesia was a plot device that seemed new to me (at the time) and worked well with the plot", and since he doesn't mention any other work, it seems clear to me that he's referring to FFVII. He only mentions another source in reference to Annah & Grace, so FFVII may not have been the inspiration for that, but for the other two concepts mentioned, it does seem to me that he's acknowledging subtle influences from FFVII. There are quite a few other similarities between the two, but I'd rather not go any deeper into this. As for your pointless "lightyears beyond" remark, it's irrelevant. While they may have some similarities (like the ones I've already mentioned), PST and FFVII fall into two seperate narrative genres: PST is primarily a D&D fantasy narrative, while FFVII is primarily a cyberpunk/dieselpunk/biopunk narrative, and both are among the best in their own respective narrative genres (or at least by videogame standards). It's like apples to oranges really, so it would make more sense pitting PST against other fantasy RPGs, or FFVII against other cyberpunk RPGs.

the combat sterotype? yes, it is.

But then again I don't think that's the main problem most people have against JRPG's

ohthemanatee

Yes, I know. I suppose the anime art, teenage protagonists and linear storylines are JRPG stereotypes that people might have more issues with than the turn-based combat.

Jag85, you fail once again to get your facts right. Planescape Torment was not the first WRPG to have a central character with an established past and personality. The Ultima series, once again, was the first. Then you have games like Betrayal at Krondor and Betrayal in Antara which have predefined characters, came out before Planescape. Until FFVI, WRPGs had far better stories....once again Krondor. Really compare FFIV to Ultima VII The Black Gate, which came out close to eachother. FFIV's story is amateur hour compared to Ultima VII. No JRPGs at the time were as creative and original as Ultima VII: The Serpents Isle. The Ultima series was always far ahead of its time (untli IX that is). Once again, being the first polygonal 3d RPG is less of an achievement than being the first true 3d RPG. Sorry, but Ultima Underworld is a FAR more infleuntial game than King's Field. I am sorry, you get so many facts wrong you lack credibility. Have you even played the Ultima games???? You are telling me they have no central narrative...lol. One again, FFVII's impact is overrated...yes, it brought the console RPG to the mainstream, but many of its innovations it gets credit for were not really true innovations. In fact, the gameplay is far more influenced by earlier titles than the gameplay influenced later titles. As for the techinical side, games like Grim Fandango blew away FFVII's techinical achievements in less than a year. In fact, if FFVII has an influence, its a negative one, which stagnated the genre.texasgoldrush

When did I ever claim Planescape was the first? Stop putting words in my mouth. I said it was a major departure from most WRPGs before it, not that it was the first. Read my first post again and you can see for yourself that I already mentioned Ultima VII: Serpent Isle as the first WRPG to do so, but that the concept had largely disappeared from WRPGs until Planescape. This was due to the later Ultima games being influenced by JRPGs, as you can see from the NES remakes of the early Ultima games borrowing heavily from Dragon Quest. And again, what the hell is "amateur hour" supposed to mean? Some new interwebs slang? Serpent Isle came some two years after FFIV by the way, by which time JRPGs had already moved on, with JRPGs that came only a year after FFIV raising the bar when it comes to mature, non-linear, storytelling, like for example Dragon Quest V (a non-linear plot that is like a 'bildungsroman' about the protagonist's growth from youth to parenthood, like The Apu Trilogy), Glory of Heracles III (an early work by FFVII's writer which revolved around an amnesiac immortal, long before FFVI, FFVII and Planescape) and Shin Megami Tensei (a non-linear plot with an alignment system that dealt with dark, mature and apocalyptic themes, which the series is still known for to this day). Also, I never claimed King's Field to be more influential than Ultima Underworld, so once again, stop putting words in my mouth. What I was disputing was your claim that Ultima Underworld helped start the FPS genre, which is completely untrue, considering that Wolfenstein 3D released at around the same time. Ultima Underworld may have had some influence on later FPS games, but certainly not Wolfenstein 3D.

As for FFVII, you've already admitted yourself there were no games in its time that could rival it technically. The only games that could rival it came a year or two later, when the likes of MGS and Grim Fandango released, but even these games were relatively small-scale compared to FFVII's epic scale which had to stretch high-quality CGI cutscenes over many dozens of hours, hence its phenomenal $45 million budget, a budget that was not rivalled until Shenmue several years later. Like I said, FFVII's influence is like Star Wars for movies, where both borrowed ideas from previous works (FFVII borrowed from previous JRPGs and Japanese & Hollywood movies, while Star Wars borrowed from previous American sci-fi and Japanese samurai movies), combined it with some of their own ideas, and packaged these into something that audiences found incredibly fresh and exciting in their time. In turn, FFVII and Star Wars were imitated so much by later works that the ideas they were responsible for popularizing in their respective media now seem like cliches today, like the premature murder of the female lead in FFVII (which evoked the kind of tear-jerking emotional reaction from millions of gamers that the videogame industry never thought possible until then) and the "I am your father" scene in Empire Strikes Back (a plot twist that audiences could not see coming and found incredibly shocking at the time). Whether you see this as a positive or negative influence, that's entirely up to you.

you do know many WRPG's use turn based combat? hell, star wars KOTOR uses turn based combat

the gameplay of ultima and Wizardry resemble the steriotypical JRPG because msot JRPG's never bothered to evolve or deviate from that formula

ohthemanatee

Stereotypes don't usually reflect reality. The stereotypical JRPG might be turn-based, but the reality is that the majority of JRPGs today are not turn-based. In fact, I would argue that a majority of JRPGs these days use real-time action combat. Some examples that come to mind are the Tales series, Star Ocean series, various FF games (FFVII Crisis Core, FFXI, FFXII, FFXIV, FF Crystal Chronicles), Rogue Galaxy, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, Demon's Souls, Folklore, Yakuza series, Mana series, Kingdom Hearts series, etc. The only major ones that still stick to turn-based combat are FFXIII (partially) and the Dragon Quest, Pokemon and Persona games. I'd say it's the stereotype that's outdated, if anything.

I'm not repeating what you said, i'm showing your logic as faulty. You're saying people are being two faced for hating on JRPG's when Ultimas/Wizardrys had a lot in common with them...Well that's a given when one developer rips off almost everything from another developer.

And yes i hate japan...that's why i've lived there for two years of my life :roll:

And i shouldn't have to refute your poor attempts at comparison when you link to some crap on a message board. you should be man enough to say "ok yeah i read that and it's pretty dumb. for every point it made you were able to see it as a very loose attempt and i'm sorry for wasting your time." but since i guess you need some random person on a message board to prove your fact here you go:

Why Mass Effect is just like Ultima

1.Theavatar is just like what you create in Mass Effect. an Avatar. 2.Both are played with controlers....or mouse and keyboard. 3.Both are were created using English first 4.Both use colors and animation. 5.Both end in saving the world but are continued in another game.

Ta Da...they are exactly alike now.

the point is you stated japanese came up with multiple endings first. wrong, early text adventure RPG's did. You said japanese came up with morailty in gaming. wrong Ultima did.

And please let's not bring Chris Avellone back into this. You already misquoted him once and then made a broad statement that they took the spells idea from FF when he even states that the artist was inspired by the effects. Yes FFVII's writing is childish compared to PS:T and people are able to say thanks for one thing and not the the other. So they thanked him FFVII for the spells but i think there's a reason we don't see FFVII topping any "best story of all time" lists like Planescape does.

smerlus

No, you obviously missed the point. What I'm pointing out is that the gameplay mechanics of Ultima & Wizardry resemble the stereotypical JRPG that most JRPG-haters always associate JRPGs with, most importantly turn-based combat. If turn-based combat is a defining factor of a stereotypical JRPG, then that would make nearly all pre-modern WRPGs "JRPGs" by those same standards, despite the Western origin of turn-based combat. Similarly, a few of the definining factors of the stereotypical WRPG have Japanese origins, like multiple endings and real-time action combat, thus early JRPGs with these features would be "WRPG" by those same stereotypical standards.

You'd be surprised how many people hate a country they've lived in for years. Hell, even I sometimes feel like hating my own country (the UK) even though I've lived here nearly all my life.

Your poor attempt at satire fails. Those parallels you've listed between Mass Effect and Ultima can be found in countless other RPGs; it's not specific to those two games only. On the other hand, the link I posted gives parallels that are specific to Mass Effect and Skies of Arcadia. All you had to do to disprove it is just point to another RPG that also shares those parallels, but the fact that you are still unable to do so can only suggest that there's a high probability that Arcadia had an influence on Mass Effect. Besides, it's not really something that major, so I don't see why you feel the need to get so defensive about it.

And again, what "text adventure RPGs" are you referring to exactly? Can you at least name one example? As far as I'm aware, the first videogame to feature multiple endings was the platformer Bubble Bobble, for the sole purpose of increasing the game's replayability and generating more profit from arcade machines by having people play it again to unlock another ending. Nintendo then introduced the concept to home consoles soon after by Metroid, after which RPGs like Sweet Home, Phantasy Star and Megami Tensei began using multiple endings. The oldest WRPG I can find with multple endings are Fallout and Daggerfall in 1996, which can only mean that WRPGs borrowed multiple endings from JRPGs. As for "morality gaming", I never mentioned anything about that. What I was referring to is the alignment system, where your choices affect your lawful/neutral/chaotic alignment, which in turn can actually have an effect on the storyline and the ending. This was something that Shin Megami Tensei first introduced, and was then further developed by strategy RPGs like Ogre Tactics, Langrisser, and Fire Emblem, and even Chrono Trigger used a limited alignment system during the events leading up to the court trial. What Ultima IV did before was something completely different, where there was only one path and a single ending, which could only be obtained if you were virtuous, i.e. it had a basic morality system, but you had no real choice in the matter, so it was not a true alignment system at all. A true alignment system did not appear in WRPGs until Fallout, which was years after JRPGs began using alignment systems.

Like I said, go read the PST manual and you will see the manual mentioning FFVII as one of the inspirations for the game. Considering how much of a departure PST was compared to other WRPGs (where you primarily build your own avatar to interact with an open world) and how much it has in common with the JRPG sty!e (revolving around a central narrative that unfolds during the game, a predefined protagonist with an established past and individual personality, and a heavy emphasis on interacting with fellow party members), it seems quite clear that this was due to a JRPG influence rather than a WRPG influence. As for PST topping "best story of all time" lists, please tell me you're joking? I seriously hope that was a typo on your part and that you really meant "best videogame story" or something, right? However, I don't remember PST ever topping any of those either, though such "best story" lists are very rare for videogames to begin with. However, as far as "best videogame of all time" lists goes, FFVII has topped quite a few of those, like the GameFAQs polls, where tens of thousands voted FFVII as the all-time greatest game twice in 2004 & 2005 and as the runner-up in 2009 (after Zelda: Ocarina of Time), which isn't bad for a game that gets bashed as much as FFVII does (since that's the 'cool' thing to do these days).

Before you write some college essay, gets your facts right...Ultima Underworld is THE FIRST 3D 1ST PERSON RPG. Not only did it inspire King's Field, it could be credited to help start the first person shooter genre. Stroytelling became a serious focus of RPGs when Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar was released. In fact, it had, set, fleshed out characters for the first time in an RPG, which would define the series later installments. Alis would not have existed without the Avatar. Also , the characters of Ultima are more fleshed out than JRPGs at the time, from the town NPCs to the party memebers. The active time battle system is a turned based battle system that has real time elements, its not a true real time system. The Ultima series had a true real time system before FFIV was even released. Ultima was commenting on the human condition and had mature themes well before JRPGs had them, credit Ultima IV for that as well...with FFVI actually being the first JRPG to truly comment on these issues. As mentioned, there were many games before JRPGs even existed to have multiple endings

texasgoldrush

By 3D, I meant 3D polygonal graphics. King's Field was polygonal 3D, while Ultima Underworld had sprite-based graphics. It wasn't until Ultima Underworld was ported to the PS1 in 1997 that it had 3D polygonal graphics. Besides, I think you are giving too much credit to Ultima (though it was very influential). There were plenty of 1st-person RPGs before Ultima Underworld, in both the J and W realms. As for FPS games, Wolfenstein 3D, the big daddy of the genre, was released around the same time as Ultima Underworld, so it's not possible for it to start the FPS genre like you claim. The 1st-person view itself dates back to Maze War in the 70s. As for Ultima IV, I hope you're not referring to the much later 1990 NES version, which was a remake based on the Dragon Quest engine that had a lot more dialogue than the original Apple II version. Some people often confuse the NES remakes of Ultima & Wizardry for the original computer versions, thus they end up getting the false impression that Dragon Quest was nothing more than a copy of Ultima/Wizardry, when it was in fact the Ultima & Wizardry NES remakes that copied Dragon Quest. On the contrary, Dragon Quest was a major improvement over Ultima & Wizardry. Dragon Quest introduced the concept of having a central narrative that unfolds during the course of the game through extensive dialogues (whereas Ultima had its plot mainly told through the manual, prologue and/or ending), a predefined protagonist with his/her own background and thoughts (while the player character in Ultima & Wizardry represented an avatar of the user), a menu interface to select commands from (whereas in Ultima & Wizardry, you had to type in each command), an overhead view and visible map for the dungeons (whereas Ultima & Wizardry had first-person perspectives in the dungeons without any map, which meant users had to draw their own maps), and other improvements. As for your other points, the first Ultima game to have real-time action combat was Ultima Underworld as far as I know, which is long after JRPGs like Dragon Slayer introduced real-time action combat. Also, the early Ultima games had rather basic plots from what I've seen, so which one are you referring to when you say mature themes? FFVI certainly wasn't the first to deal with mature themes either, but games like Phantasy Star, Megami Tensei and Sweet Home dealt with mature themes long before. The original Megami Tensei, for example, had a plot adapted from a novel (which was probably a first for a video game), Sweet Home was adapted from a horror film (and gave birth to the survival horror genre while doing so), and Phantasy Star II had a plot with some resemblance to the 2009 Hollywood blockbuster Avatar. While I can agree that Ultima had better plots compared to pre-DQ JRPGs, the post-DQ JRPGs took storytelling to a new level compared to what Ultima had done before.

FFVI is influential, thats why I consider it one of the greatest RPGs ever made, however, it had clear western influence. Sure it had the sidequests that flashed out the characters, but it was Ultima which led the way in establishing real characters in RPGs in the first place. JRPGs have not evolved, especially with their storytelling. Sure, there are some that go outside the box, but they tragically don't influence anything. Gameplay systems may be different, however, there ishardly anyevolution there either. Unlike WRPGs where a game like The Witcher has huge effects on the genre.

Hello, Ultima anyone!!!!!! And FFVII's influence was overrated...the only real influence it had was on the techinical and marketing side. In fact, Grim Fandango was as cinematic as FFVII was and came only a year later. FFVII's influence may be overstated there as well. Not all of FFVII's influence is good anyway.

Fallout modernized the dialogue system into what you see today. It also hugely influenced moderm WRPG makers.

texasgoldrush

Like I said, FFVI had indirect Western influence through its early predecessors (which were descended from early computer RPGs like Ultima, Wizardry and Rogue). By the time FFVI released, there wasn't any WRPGs in its time that could really compare to it, though there were plenty of JRPGs that could. For example, Phantasy Star III and several Megami Tensei games had a post-apocalyptic setting before it, while plenty of JRPGs had non-linear storytelling before it, like Dragon Slayer, Sweet Home, Phantasy Star III, the Saga series, Shin Megami Tensei, Ogre Battle, Fire Emblem, FFV (to an extent), and Live A Live. And I'm not sure what you mean about evolution? JRPGs have evolved far beyond what they were in the mid-90s. The ones that "go outside the box" are influential, as you can see with the Megami Tensei series, which is now the third most popular RPG series in Japan after DQ and FF. Even the FF games now have very little resemblance to the FF games produced in the mid-90s. JRPGs have a huge diversity in terms of both storytelling (from bare minimum plot, to extremely linear story, to open non-linear storytelling) and gameplay systems (turn-based combat, real-time action, hybrid combat, hack & slash, third-person shooter, turn-based strategy, real-time strategy, sports, etc.), to the point that calling JRPG a 'genre' doesn't really make much sense anymore.

Fallout was influential in its own right, but its influence was mainly limited to WRPGs. FFVII's influence, on the other hand, extended not only to both JRPGs and WRPGs, but to the videogame industry as a whole. FFVII's influence on the technical and marketing side alone is already more than enough influence as it is. Nearly every big-budget blockbuster videogame ever released since the late 90s (regardless of the genre) is pretty much following in FFVII's footsteps. After all, FFVII was the first truly big-budget videogame ever produced, while its marketing budget still remains the largest seen for any videogame to this day. As for FFVII's influence on the RPG genre specifically, it's influence is already apparent in Japan, where FFVII was imitated so much that its innovations now seem like cliches today. It's influence on WRPGs is also apparent from the fact that FFVII brought RPGs as a whole into the mainstream (most people had never heard of the term 'RPG' before) and it was also after its release that PC RPG developers began placing a much greater emphasis on storytelling and characterization in order to compete against the then-popular console RPGs. Its influence on videogame storytelling in general is apparent from how many video games after it have borrowed similar plot elements, like the heavy use of frequent plot twists, emotional death scenes,themes like environmentalism and corporate exploitation, religious and philsophical references, existential themes, amnesiac protagonists with an identity crisis, sympathetic antagonists, love triangles, dating-sim elements via dialogue choices, plot-driven minigames, etc. FFVII may not have been the first to use some of these ideas, but it was the one to popularize many of these plot elements, much like Star Wars which wasn't completely original but popularized many ideas in its time.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

'RPG' seems like a rather ill-defined term that keeps changing with the times. In the distant past, RPG meant the table-top role-playing games. After it came to videogames, RPG began referring to games with stat-based character development and/or stat-based battles. Now with racing and action games increasingly incorporating stat-based 'RPG elements' (like Gran Turismo, Devil May Cry, Resident Evil 4 & 5, God of War, Modern Warfare 2, etc.), fans are now attempting to redefine RPGs to refer to games with things like open worlds, dialogue choices, and/or branching plots, a definition that would exclude a handful of JRPGs (especially FFXIII, which Square Enix even denies to be a RPG), while at the same time including many sandbox games (which offer more open-world exploration than most RPGs) and adventure games (especially visual novels, which usually offer more dialogue choices, branching plots and multiple endings than most RPGs). So what exactly is a 'RPG' supposed to mean exactly?

Raymundo_Manuel

There was a time when table-top RPGs, and video game RPGs were the same thing. Only difference was the RNG was behind the scenes. You still built characters, and progressed through the story through dialogue choices, and such, and encounters were based around how you built your character.

Nowadays it tends to mean something different because it seems most people think of an RPG as a game where you "gain levels", and that's about it.

I assume you're probably referring to the early text-based MUD games? If RPGs were all about dialogue choices, then wouldn't that mean adventure games and visual novels are also RPGs? Adventure and VN games also give dialogue choices, branching plots and multiple endings. The only thing I can think of that differentiates adventure/VN games from RPGs is the stat-based combat of the latter.

'RPG' seems like a rather ill-defined term that keeps changing with the times. In the distant past, RPG meant the table-top role-playing games. After it came to videogames, RPG began referring to games with stat-based character development and/or stat-based battles. Now with racing and action games increasingly incorporating stat-based 'RPG elements' (like Gran Turismo, Devil May Cry, Resident Evil 4 & 5, God of War, Modern Warfare 2, etc.), fans are now attempting to redefine RPGs to refer to games with things like open worlds, dialogue choices, and/or branching plots, a definition that would exclude a handful of JRPGs (especially FFXIII, which Square Enix even denies to be a RPG), while at the same time including many sandbox games (which offer more open-world exploration than most RPGs) and adventure games (especially visual novels, which usually offer more dialogue choices, branching plots and multiple endings than most RPGs). So what exactly is a 'RPG' supposed to mean exactly?

a

First off....Ultima IV. which came out in 1985, featured a far superior story than JRPGs of that time. You also are forgetting the SSI Gold Box series, didn't make it to consoles (except for Pools of Radiance), but are PC hits, had far more advanced storytelling than JRPGs at the time. Real time and turn based combat fusion was introduced with Ultima series, before FFIV. You are very wrong saying that King's Field is the first 1st person 3d RPG...that is Ultima Underworld. The Might and Magic series also had first person view. Ultima VII had multiple endings, before Chrono Trigger had them. You post is nice and long, but many of your facts are wrong. Ultima is the most influential RPG series of all time....it build the foundation for both WRPGs and JRPGs.

Yes, Avellone loves Chrono Trigger, but most of the influence for Planescape Torment is western.texasgoldrush

The first JRPGs barely had any story in the early-mid 80s, so it shouldn't be surprising the Ultima games would have had better plots at the time. It wasn't until Phantasy Star that storytelling started becoming the central focus of RPGs. And I'm not really sure what you mean by "more advanced storytelling"? On the contrary, I would argue that JRPGs were more advanced in this area at the time, due to their more dynamic character interactions and relationships (like having a predefined protagonist with her/her own individual personality and backstory, how each party member had a unique personality and backstory of their own, how the player character always interacted and communicated differently with each party member, how the party members interacted with each other irrespective of the player character, etc.), which can already be seen in some of the early JRPGs like Phantasy Star II. Also, which Ultima are you referring to exactly? The early Ultima games, at least, were entirely turn-based. When FFIV introduced the Active Time Battle system, Square was awarded a US patent for it, which wouldn't have been possible if previous games had a similar hybrid battle system before, implying that the ATB system was something new for its time. As for King's Field, I wasn't saying it's the first 1st-person RPG, but that it was just the earliest 3D one. There were of course previous RPGs, both W and J, that had 2D 1st-person view before it. As for Ultima VII, that may have come before Chrono Trigger, but there were already JRPGs with multiple endings before Ultima VII (like Phantasy Star III and Shin Megami Tensei for example). In fact, I would argue that Ultima VII borrowed a few ideas from earlier JRPGs, like the multiple endings and the way the party interacted. Either way, I see such borrowings between W and J RPGs as a good thing, not a bad thing. Both subgenres can only be enriched by borrowing ideas from one another.

True that WRPGs and JRPGs influenced eachother, however WRPGs had more influence onn JRPGs than the other way around. In fact, after the mid 90's with Chrono Trigger, and FFVI and VII, games that did influence later WRPG developers, the genre has not inlfuenced WRPG developers much at all. I see the huge Ultima influence in the second half of FFVI, traveling the World of Ruin is like traveling Britannia, open and nonlinear, as you gather party members and complete the final quest. Chrono Trigger was evolution of FFVI in many ways, but kept FFVI's linear first half, nonlinear second half format. I could say thatthe genre today still hasn't evolved past Chrono Trigger andeven took steps backward.

While the Planescape Torment makers were inspired by FFVII, the story and gameplay were hardly influenced by it. Fallout, another highly influential WRPG,however, had no JRPG influence, which feature Ultima elements as well as Wasteland. In fact the first Falloutmay have been even more influential than FFVII was as time as gone by in the long run (both came out in the same year).texasgoldrush

There were many early JRPGs, including the early DQ and FF games, that had similar open-world exploration to the second half of FFVI, so it's not like it was a first for JRPGs. I agree this open-world exploration can indirectly be traced back to Ultima, but that's not what made FFVI get the critical acclaim that it did. The way FFVI's second half let you go on optional sidequests dedicated to exploring the backstories and sub-plots of former party members before you can re-recruit them is more similar to Mass Effect 2 rather than Ultima. As for Chrono Trigger, JRPGs have evolved significantly since then. You can't seriously be suggesting that the likes of Persona, Demon's Souls, Yakuza, Valkyria Chronicles and Star Ocean are still the same as Chrono Trigger? While I respect some of your opinions, that's just ridiculous. That's like saying WRPGs haven't evolved at all since Fallout or Baldur's Gate.

Planescape Torment was arguably the first WRPG to emphasize storytelling and characterization as its central focus over the gameplay, and I think this is where the JRPG influence is most apparent. Other than that, I agree that Planescape Torment has its own unique story and is more influenced by WRPGs in terms of gameplay. As for Fallout, that does seem mostly WRPG in its influences, though I disagree that it, or any RPG (both W and J) for that matter, could have possibly had the same kind of influence as FFVII, which not only influenced the RPG genre, but influenced the videogame industry as a whole.

I find it funny that your forget that early JRPG's are just carbon copies of Ultima and this is common knowledge. If the japanese all of a sudden copied everything that The Elder Scrolls is and has done, only a weeaboo would try to say it all of a sudden has more in common with a JRPG. Do you run around saying that GTA San Andreas is aclone of Saint's Row?

Your strange reliance on message boards is something I pity. you're take random musings from some no name person and then try to pass them off as fact. for every similarity there, there is is a counter point that renders the similarity a useless point. Just look at the first point...going from a fishing boat to a prototype is not the same as going from a prototype to a larger copy of the same prototype. You get upgrades in your ship to be able to handle combat better in SoA, the upgrades for the normandy are optional and only have a relevance in a single cutscene. You don't recruit crew members in ME2 for the same function as the crew members in skies of arcadia. The Normandy already comes with engineers, a cook, a pilot, a doctor. You only recruitparty members and their upgrades to the ship are once again optional. Crew does get captured but once again it's optional if you save them and the amount of people that are saved are determined by the number of quests you do after they are captured. on my play through i ended up losing most of the crew because i had other things to do. No way...spacechip guns come from under the ship? did the japanese invent that? nope a lot of ships in sci fi lore have guns that come from the bottom, it's the same wayplanes were designed in 1954. customizing your armor is just like customizing your base...only a lot different. and i'm not going to acknowlege the last point. nice try but next time you should just link your reasoning to a picture of a garbage can. it would be a lot more effective.

Also try playing Quest of the Avatar again and then come back and speak of the game like you've actually played it. The game gives you numerous chances to make up for the bad things you do so i can still be able to uphold the virture of honesty as a thief as long as i do enough good deeds to cancel out the bad deeds such as telling the truth when you deal with handicapped shop owners. for instance i can steal things from people but if i am honest further down the road then i can make up for that.smerlus

I already pointed out the fact that DQ was primarily inspired by Ultima and Wizardry, so all you're doing is just repeating what I already said. And if you're going to call me a "weaboo" for defending JRPGs, then what does that make you? A Japanobhobe or even a racist? If you're going to throw around dumb labels like that, then I can just as easily do the same to you. And no, there's nothing wrong with what I said. The early Ultima, Wizardry and Rogue games are more closer to what we'd today identify as "JRPG" style than what we'd today call "WRPG" style. For example, Wizardry was more popular in Japan than in the West, which is obvious from the fact that the later entries in the Wizardry series were produced by JRPG developers, while Rogue-like dungeon crawlers are also more popular in Japan than they are over here in the West.

Read my post again. I already explained that I posted a link to a message post out of laziness, nothing more. I didn't want to have to write out entire paragraphs explaining something when I could just post a link. Besides, you haven't really disproved anything that link said about the similarities between Arcadia and Mass Effect. All you did is point to similarities outside of the videogame medium, when all you had to do to disprove it is simply point to earlier RPGs that had it. The fact that you couldn't do so would imply that there are no earlier RPGs that had those same similarities that Arcadia and Mass Effect have.

The point is that Quest of the Avatar didn't have multiple endings. It had a morality system, but you couldn't complete the game unless you were good. Shin Megami Tensei, on the other hand, did have multiple endings, which could be determined through the alignment system. In SMT, you weren't forced to take the good path, but you could also take the chaos and neutral paths which would lead to different endings.

actually research the term MUD...also you'll find that they were the first Multiplayer online games too. So that's another thing the japanese sadly didn't invent.

LOL you quote message board users as referrence. try that in a college essay. The quote I used was just refferenced in a wikipedia post but CA actually said it.

Oh really?

Furthermore, Planescape is based on D&D lore which has spells far before FF games did. They did say that the over-the-top spell effects were influenced by FFVII but nice try sneaking the rest by. As if the brilliant characters and storyline in PS:T would draw any inspiration from the amateur hour that is FFVIIsmerlus

I see you're just trying to portray me as some kind of "weaboo" or "Japanophile", trying to make it seem like I'm claiming the Japs invented everything, or some nonsense like that. I don't remember making any such claims, especially not about MMOs, so stop trying to put words into my mouth. I can just as easily portray you as a Japanophobe or even a racist if I wanted to, so don't even bother going there.

If you think FFVII is an "amateur hour" (WTF?), PST's creator Avelone (and most professionals in the videogame industry) would certainly disagree with you. He was quite clearly a fan of FFVII (as well as Chrono Trigger), to the point of even having FFVII mentioned as inspiration in the PST manual (just go read the PST manual if you don't believe me). That doesn't make it the only influence, as PST had plenty of other influences, but one can't deny that PST's emphasis on storytelling and characterization above the gameplay was something new for the WRPG subgenre, and this was due to the JRPG influence. The end result was that this created a more enriching experience, so such influences can only be a good thing, not a bad thing as you're trying to make it seem. Even the PST creators were honest enough to mention JRPG influences, unlike some egoistic WRPG fans who deny any such influences on their favourite subgenre. We don't see JRPG fans denying the influence of Ultima or Wizardry, and yet we often see WRPG fans today trying to deny any such JRPG influences.

wow. someone has rose tinted glasses that say "made in japan" on them

You mention Ultima but must not have played it because it counteracts a lot of points you try to make but fail on.smerlus

Wow. Someone has rose tinted glasses that say "Made in America" on them.

As for Ultima, I find it funny how some WRPG fans who hate JRPGs are proud to claim Ultima as their own simply because of its American developer, despite the fact that it is has far more in common with the JRPGs they hate than it ever did with the WRPGs they love so much. What's with the double-standards? And yet these are probably the same people who wouldn't mind claiming Demon's Souls as a "WRPG" despite its Japanese developer and JRPG roots. Yet more double-standards?

adventure has you killing NPC's? Noway...i was able to do that in the early Ultima games. If the Normandy...which is a space ship is going to be compared to Skies of Arcadia's flying boat as a means to get from one location to another then i'm just going to do a better comparison and compare the boats available in the early Ultimas to, you know an actual boat. And Planescape Torment is influenced by FFVII because of an amnesia plot. Well then Chrono Trigger is influenced by Ultima I because of its time travel plot. And sorry but choices of good and evil were also found in the early Ultima's also which predate any of the games you listed.smerlus

The kind of examples you come up with are just so ridiculous and irrelevant, it makes me wonder whether you actually bothered to put any thought at all into your post? There have been so many JRPGs before Skies of Arcadia that had airships, including nearly all the FF games, and yet why do you think I pointed to Skies of Arcadia specifically? It should be pretty obvious it's because Arcadia's Delphinus and Mass Effect's Normandy have far more similarities than that. Also, please be more specific which Ultima you're referring to. The only early Ultima game to have a morality system was Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar, which did not have a true alignment system, but it had a system where you had to be good in order to complete the game. The first RPG to have a true alignment system, where you have the choice between good, neutral and evil paths, each leading to branching plots and different endings, was first introduced by the original Shin Megami Tensei on the SNES.

Multiple endings were already done in the 70's in the first computer RPG games which were text adventures.

it's simply astounding how much BS you packed into a single post. Planescape's design documents were pitched in '97 yet a game that cam out in '99 influenced it? "According to lead designer Chris Avellone, Planescape: Torment was inspired by books, comics, and games, including Archie Comics, The Chronicles of Amber, The Elementals and Shadowrun. The game's 1997 outline also makes references to The Lord of the Rings to describe some characters." hmmm no mention of FF games in there....could it be you made that all up?smerlus

Text adventures are not RPGs, unless you're referring to text-based RPGs on mainframe computers during the 70s, in which case I don't remember any of them having multiple endings. Even if they did, though I highly doubt it, graphical RPGs never had multiple endings until JRPGs introduced them in the late 80s or early 90s, so I don't see the relevance here.

At least I put actual historical research into my post, whereas all you've been doing is misinterpresting everything I said and shouting insults, without actually refuting anything I actually said or even bothering to do any research. The only thing that comes close is you quoting several lines from Wikipedia, which would lead to a fail if you did that for a university history essay. For a start, read Planescape Torment's manual, and you'll find it written there as clear as day: the development team thanking "FFVII and VIII for inspiration", and these are the only games mentioned as inspiration (rather than a WRPG) in the manual. The evidence doesn't end there either, but there's also an interview with the creator Chris Avelone stating that he "played FF7 and loved it", acknowledging its influence on Planescape and mentioning some of the similarities I mentioned in my previous post (magic spells, characters with unique personalities & weapon types, amnesia plotline, resemblance between Annah & Grace and Tifa & Aeris, and the three incarnations). In another interview, Avalone also included Chrono Trigger in his list of all-time favourite games. Considering how Planescape Torment was responsible for moving WRPGs towards a greater emphasis on storytelling and characterization, it's pretty significant that its creators gave more credit to JRPGs as influences rather than WRPGs.

["Your second paragraph lists a bunch of RPG milestones ignoring the fact that the JRPG genre itself owes its existance to WRPG's. Turn based combat that JRPG's still used today computer rpgs did first, random encounters, crpgs did first, first person perspective, crpgs did it first, party systems, crpgs did it first.

you quoting misinformed people in your posts does you no favors either. it's rather pointless. I give your history post here a D- in accuracy. you tried hard but failed miserably."]

And when did I ever deny the early computer RPG influence on early JRPGs? Stop putting words into my mouth. The reason I didn't mention it is because it's just too obvious. Nearly every article ever discussing the early history of JRPGs will point out that the first few, specifically Dragon Quest, were inspired by Ultima or Wizardry. That's not even up for debate. The problem here is that some WRPG fans are under the illusion that their favourite subgenre was always superior since the dawn of time, completely ignoring the huge advances that JRPGs made to the RPG genre from the mid-80s up until the early 2000s, and how modern WRPGs absorbed these advances and gained more popularity as a result. JRPGs and WRPGs do not live in seperate vacuums, but each has influenced the other.

I wasn't posting those links as some kind of evidence, but was just posting them to avoid having to make my post any longer than it already was. If I'm a D- in history, then what does that make you? An F in history? Hell, I don't think any history teacher would even give you a grade at all, judging from your half-arsed response. And for your information, I took a history course as part of my university degree, which is certainly more than you've ever done in the subject.

JRPGs are dead.

Get over it.

DeckardLee2010

So just because JRPGs no longer completely dominate the RPG market like they used to, that suddenly means they're dead? While WRPGs may have caught-up, and in some ways overtaken, these last few years, let's not forget that local WRPGs (or CRPGs as they were known back then) were suffering from a similar case of stagnation and even near-death not too long ago until they began adapting to compete with JRPG imports in order to gain a foothold in the console market. In turn, JRPGs are also evolving to compete with WRPGs to regain their share of the Western console market, with JRPGs like The World Ends With You and Persona 3 & 4 (all distinctly JRPG with highly innovative gameplay and plots), Valkyria Chronicles (again distinctly JRPG with a unique blend of real-time strategy, turn-based strategy and action RPG gameplay) and Demon's Souls (the spiritual successor to the King's Field JRPG series and the most innovative dungeon-crawler in years) being some of the highest-rated RPGs in Western publications these past two years alone (some even giving them "Game of the Year" awards), while games like White Knight Chronicles and Dragon Quest IX are experimenting with online co-operative multi-player, Resonance of Fate and Muramasa: The Demon Blade are experimenting with innovative combat systems, and Sega's Yakuza series is experimenting with the RPG genre in completely new directions (with its unique blend of action RPG gameplay with beat-'em-up combat, Shemue/GTA-ish sandbox exploration, realistic contemporary Japanese setting, and Yakuza gangster themes). JRPGs are still alive and well, whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, then just get over it already. No one's telling you to play them.

JRPGs were only good back when the japanese had a monopoly on the console RPG market. They never were very good. Its mostly just nostalgia creeping its ugly head. JRPGs havent gotten any worse, its just western RPGs are waaaaay better. As soon as Knights of the old republic came out, it was easy to see how bad JRPGs were for people that hadnt had the privilege of PC gaming.

markinthedark

JRPGs like the Phantasy Star, Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games not only introduced emotionally-engaging storytelling and predefined characterization to the RPG genre in the late 80s and early 90s, but Nihon Falcom also introduced real-time action RPG gameplay with their Dragon Slayer games in the early-mid 80s. The concept of action RPGs was then further evolved by later JRPGs like Castlevania II (with its platform-based RPG gameplay), Zelda II (with its action-adventure RPG gameplay), FF Adventure (the first RPG to give you the freedom of killing NPCs), Secret of Mana (the first co-operative multiplayer RPG), King's Field (the first 3D first-person RPG) and Tales of Phantasia (with its fighting-game action combat), before WRPGs began implementing similar action-RPG battle systems. The concept of fusing real-time action with turn-based combat was also pioneered by FFIV with its ATB system, while dynamic customization where a character's c!ass can be changed at will during the course of the game was introduced with the job system in Dragon Quest IV and FFIII. After FFVII was ported to PCs, PC reviewers used to playing WRPGs at the time were impressed with how FFVII's ATB engine fused real-time & turn-based action, while praising the near-limitless customization made possible with the materia system (with FFVII's only limitation being its unique weapon types for each character, though it was still more dynamic and customizable than the rigid c!ass system used in most WRPGs at the time), and of course its production values and emotionally-engaging cinematic cut scenes, things that PC RPGs could not compete with at the time.

It wasn't until the impact of FFVII that we began seeing WRPGs that could rival JRPGs. FFVII's impact in particular is apparent in some of the influential WRPGs that immediately followed it, like Planescape Torment (which credited FFVII and FFVIII as inspiration, which is apparent from its magic spells, a fairly linear focused narrative, predefined main character with a determined background, allies with unique personalities & weapon types, amnesia plotline, resemblance between Annah & Grace and Tifa & Aeris, three incarnations, etc.), Fallout 2 (which makes direct references to FFVII in the game itself), Septerra Core (inspired by the FF games), Anachronox (which credited JRPGs like Chrono Trigger as inspiration), etc. This JRPG influence carried over to the Xbox era, when WRPGs began moving to consoles in order to attract a console crowd that was more used to JRPGs. This is apparent in Fable (with creator Molyneux crediting FFVII as inspiration and who even believes FFVII to be the most influential RPG of all time) and especially KOTOR, which some WRPG fans at the time (CRPGs/WRPGs back then were facing a similar predicament to JRPGs today, ironically) felt was imitating the console JRPG sty!e in order to attract console gamers, like having a predefined main character with a determined background, allies with unique personalities, emotionally-engaging cinematic cut scenes, occasional minigames, and character interaction with allies. This WRPG-JRPG fusion formula has now become standard among modern WRPGs and especially Bioware's games, which have continued to show JRPG influence in later games like Jade Empire (similar to KOTOR's sty!e but with an East-Asian setting), Mass Effect (which shows influences from the DC JRPG Skies of Arcadia with its Normandy ship, while the tragic choice of saving only one of two allies was a concept that originated from the PS1 JRPG Granstream Saga) and Dragon Age (which has a battle system influenced by FFXII's gambit system). In fact, nearly all the BioWare RPGs still follow the same basic plot structure that was popularized by FFVII, while Mass Effect 2 follows the same basic plot structure as FFVI, not to mention the dating-sim elements borrowed from JRPGs (used for a long time in games like Star Ocean, Harvest Moon, FFVII and Persona).

The concepts of non-linear branching plots and multiple endings now popular in WRPGs were also pioneered in the early 90s by JRPGs like Phantasy Star III, Shin Megami Tensei, Ogre Battle, Live A Live, Chrono Trigger, Terranigma, Star Ocean, Saga series, Suikoden, and even FFV & FFVI to an extent. It was Chrono Trigger in particular that popularized the concept of multiple endings in the West, where the creators of influential WRPGs like Fallout and Planescape Torment have mentioned Chrono Trigger as one of their favourite games. Even the alignment system, where your moral/immoral actions directly affects the gameplay, storyline and multiple endings, is something that was introduced by Shin Megami Tensei in the early 90s and used by strategy-based JRPGs like Ogre Battle, Fire Emblem and Langrisser long before Fallout popularized it in WRPGs during the late 90s. The current success of WRPGs is due to how they successfully incorporated JRPG elements while still maintaining a distinct WRPG sty!e thus making it possible for WRPGs to compete with, and in some ways outdo, JRPGs, as we have seen these past few years.